straight back leg is at the moment of impact (ie the final part of a kihon movement), else you're not supporting your upper body with anything and any straight punches you throw will become much less effective. also define robotic, since i don't find it robotic at all, in fact it's quite natural
Hi FOD Toatay agree with your comments. As for the rest of you guys if your legs dont burn and shake while doing basics then you are all standing too high. The zenkustu dachi in that picture is text book zenkustu, and if your under 40 years of age nothing else will do. Like i said in the head post this postion (picture) is at the moment of impact otherwise the back leg is soft and bent slightly in kumite. And this is how zenkustu should be in kihon training. BTW if you can move quickly having your centre of gravity so low, you should be grease lighting once your legs have been conditioned from the kihon (stances) when you are in free fighting stance.
The stance is not textbook, in the text in that book they will say to keep the bone from foot to knee straight.. observe picture again.. Also the back foot could be turned out slightly more as that would help. Just my 2 cents mate
And did anyone notice in the "boxing"... Vid that by the time he finished talking the kid had 1, dropped the heel on the floor, 2, locked the front knee! Which is what he was going on about his preference of not doing exactly that.. lol. Why dont they see that when they are checking it over before putting it out there? (the vid from their garage ) Anyway, good luck to them ofcourse
for reference, here is the last discussion we had on stances http://martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10622748
Get a new text book. That picture illustrates what happens when longer limbed occidentals try to mirror exactly a posture used by shorter limbed people. I can remember postures like that when I first started Karate. These days more knowledgeable instructors take into account the difference between western and japanese physiology and teach stances which are more appropriate. As an example - look at this UK JKA club: http://www.yushikai.co.uk/index.php
From the perspective of your particular brand of Shotokan may be. But not from a Shorin Ryu perspective I'm afraid, or that of other styles I would imagine. Mike
That zenkutsu dachi is asking to be leg kicked. Should buckle in nicely. Anyway...I see stances as indicators of body weight transfer. I don't buy into the "the foot must be so many fist widths from the big toe" level of detail. I think that's designed to give people something to tell junior ranks to make it appear they know what they are doing. Zenkutus dachi = Body weight projected forward. Kiba dachi = body weight drops kokutsu dachi = weight drops back and down etc etc As such I see most stances being adopted from a more neutral (and natural) "fighting" stance for split second for the purpose of executing a technique and then back to neutral again. Never static or held (because fighting is rarely static and held). Even boxers adopt a zenkutsu dachi type stance when they throw a long cross (because their body weight is travelling forwards!). Standing in stance for long periods of time seems about as related to fighting as standing for a bus for long periods of time. Might test your patience (which is maybe a good thing) but you're essentially waiting for something exciting to happen.
Nor from a Wado perspective, but anyway, as I am the wrong side of 40 I guess it doesn't matter TBH, The deep Zunkutsu thing doesn't sit well with me, regardless of why it may done. I've never liked the "pushing" off of the back foot analogy, or the back leg straight so it can be used as a prop - type thing. I like to think of it as movement from the hara -as one - rather than pushing or pulling. Also I think a lot of it comes down to the value you place on the "mobility" of movement over and above power generation. Personally, I do not train Junzuki as exercise in delivering the most amount of power at the focus point of the punch. I train it to understand the value of efficient movement and co-ordination. In some Wado dojo Zunkutsu is a swear word, and certainly if you look back at some of the old photos of the likes of Funaksohi , Mabuni and Motubo etc., it would appear as this type of deep stance was alien to them as well. Gary
And roads that are far too small to handle them! Although in my bit of York we don't really get busses anyway, so nothing exciting happens there And as far as shotokan zenkutsus go, I'm not a big fan of the tendency to make the stance as long and wide as possible. It gets to a stage where it's either just for show or training in bad habits. My rule of thumb has always been go as long as you're comfortable with (and can move effectively enough from) and as wide as your shoulders, maybe a little more
Hi Griffin The zenkustu dachi in that picture is text book in the shotokan that i practice. If you drop a plumb line down to the ground from your knee (front foot) it should just fall outside your foot print on the side the big toe knuckle joins the toe to the foor/ball. If you had your knee directly over your foot, the sole of the foot would be unsteady and you would be placing an unecessary amount of force on your knee and ankle when moving quickly, i think it would be fair to say you would have a wobly knee in zenkustu with the knee directly above the foot.
Hi JWT While i agree with you statement about different physiology an that it applies to many movements in kata, i dont agree that it applies here to the zenkustu dachi. I think a rule of thumb would be to have it at least one yard long and shoulder width. In most schools because holding the text book zenkustu is very difficult over a long time many people start to increase the angle of the front knee this raises their centre of gravity and the stance doesn't look as low as it did when they were holding the proper form. So you could have two people side by side both the same height, one is holding the proprer from and he looks lower than the other guy who has tired and slackened of by increasing the angle in the front knee both are the same length and width but one looks lower thean the other. Another rule of thumb is once you have perfect zenkustu dachi (text book) with your buttocks under your spine (the rear doesn't protrude out the back side) and your spine is perpendicular to the ground, without moving your head glance down (just eye movement) at your front foot, the knee should just cover the big toe of your front foot from this angle of vision.
I have an English Shotokan text book from the 1980s that represents that type of stance, and here's a link to how my old association were doing it back then: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJyNovR-WlU&feature=related"]YouTube- Blocks: Ude Uke and Uchi Uke[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I8VGK6Z-us"]YouTube- Further Blocks[/ame] These were Kanazawa's London students - from the same era as Enoeda's Liverpool students like O Neill, Sherry etc. My original instructor is Roger Hall - the bearded uke. However I am amazed that this bad posture is still being taught. If you look at the 1930s edition of Karate Do Kyohan, the 1950s edition of Karate Do Kyohan, any of Nakayama's dynamic Karate series of books or Kanazawa's Kata books you will see a very different Zenkutsu Dachi. Looking at Shotokan classes in England across many associations today, while the stances are not so high as in the 1950s - they do take into account the difference in limb length and are higher then the one you've shown, but with the same depth (ie foot distance apart relative to shoulder and hip width) as the Japanese stances - this consequently makes for a different look but a more stable and fluid position. I'm sorry but that's absolute rubbish. The length of the stance HAS to be determined by the length of the person's legs (and thighs in particular). A person with long legs can hold the same angle as a person with short legs, but will be much higher because the angle at the knee is not 90 degrees, it's about 50 degrees. On a short person this will make the front leg part of zenkutsu dachi look rectangular, on a tall person this will make the stance look more like a house with a sloping roof - yet they both have the same angle. If I have a rule of thumb for Shotokan stance like Zenkutsu dachi and kiba dachi it is feet approximately double shoulder width apart - with adjustment for leg length.
Hi JWT The text book zenkustu is mainly used during kihon, it will differ when you are partner drilling, but when you are practing basic kihon drills on your own or in kata then imo thats how it should be, i think this eliminates the wobly front knee syndrome. Also i think Kanazawa as great as he is, has changed alot of things from the JKA shotokan, this may be one of them. I see you come from good lineage, i would wager that you still employ some karate methods in your current art?
I agree that a sis foot six gentlemen and a five foot eight gentlemen would not look the same. The zenkutsu for both would be a yard long and ashoulder width wide. For both to gauge if they have correct form, once they attain it they will glance down by eye movement only, as explained before, their front knee should just cover the front toe, this is the tool they must both use to adjust to perfect form, once they have done that, then they will have different hieghts i agree but with perfect from in both cases.
I'm going to make a slight off topic observation here and someone correct me if I'm speaking out of line, but: I'm all for being traditional, but there's a difference between tradition and pedantry. A stance will never be exactly this or exactly that. My stance changes depending on how flexible I'm feeling, or how tired I am, or lots of other variables. My stance is as long and as deep as my stance. I'll bet it's not the same as yours, but it will look similar and do the same job - technique and training wise
That's so silly I'm not going to dignify it with a response. Moving on, one of the defining features of a forward stance is that the shin is vertical, ie. the knee being directly above the heel or slightly forwards of that (but never further forward than the toes). It should never angle back the other way, which is what people tend to do when tired. Given that restriction thigh angle will depend on stance length. Unlike some here I don't get pedantic about overall length. Stance length depends on the requirements of the moment. For me, forward stance can be any length from a short TKD type walking stance to a full blown Shotokan zenkutsudachi (well, maybe not quite that far!). Mike
