Sports Karate vs Original Karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by shotokanster, Aug 5, 2011.

  1. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    As already stated Itosu laid much of the frame work for what Funakoshi put together , all he really did was swap the first 2 hieans around.
    I think alot of the "Funakoshi ruined everything with his childrens Karate" sentiment comes down to our old friend politics , alot of the other teachers of the time weren't happy with the direction he was taking (and possibly a little jealous of the attention he was getting) , so , they claimed he was watering it down etc , their students just repeat what they've been told.
  2. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Shotokan kata don't have roundhouses in them, but there are a lot of motions that are described as sweeps or crescent-esque movements. These movements can be translated quite easily, I think, in to a roundhouse type movement, if you're that way inclined.

    Hope that's a bit clearer! I'm not saying they're definitely there but you can certainly engineer them with the movements found in the kata. This would work I reckon if you take it in the spirit of practical bunkai interpretation.
  3. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    As always Fish a nice post , just a couple of minor corrections

    1/ My understanding is that the demo for the Emperor was requested after he had witnessed Funakoshi and his students on a trip to Okinawa , and only Funakoshi was asked originally , though others followed soon after.

    2/ Wadoryu was formed after this time (though i can't remember if it was pre or post war) , and it's formation is a source of controversy in itself.

    3/ The JKA instructors program was set up in Funakoshis lifetime , i know Kanazawa and the Late Enoeda have spoke/written about picking Funakoshi up to over see their classes.

    As i said minor stuff.

    For the op from what you've said about yourself do you train with JKA Scotland ?
    If you do i'd recommend talking to Moosey more as i'd suspect you may have some shared heritage in training.

    All that said i'm going to get myself ready to go train with a local 6th dan and probably get flattened :)
  4. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    As an aside, all Karate is down to personal interpretation anyway, within the general rules of karate. So anything Itosu did, or Funakoshi did, or Nakayama did (and I'd say Nakayama was much more influential than Funakoshi) doesn't have to be the be all and end all of karate. It just usually is because, as Bassai said, politics.

    It's why it's so important to personalise whatever art you do to fit you and, in the terms of traditional karate and kata etc, why it is so important to understand that syllabi and kata are just frameworks and handbooks of technique and tactics to be read, interpreted and applied in different contexts. We get too caught up on the 'bible', as it were.
  5. Diargo

    Diargo Valued Member

    Just as a bit of clarity for the Wado ryu setup:

    Ōtsuka began training with Funakoshi in 1922, and became one of the seven students gaining the first black belt under the adopted Kano Dan/Kyu system (1924). In the early 1930's a 'philosophical' disagreement regarding approaches to Karate had broken out between them.

    Ōtsuka sought instruction from other Karate instructors notably Kenwa Mabuni & Choki Motobu. These influences can be observed in the Kata and philosophies of Wado Ryu.

    In 1938, Ōtsuka registered his style of karate with the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai under the name of "Shinshu Wadoryu Karate-Jujutsu." Soon after, however, this was shortened to "Wadō-ryū" (和道流).

    In 1938, the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai awarded Ōtsuka the rank of Renshi-Go, followed in 1942 by the rank of Kyoshi-Go. It In 1944, Ōtsuka was appointed Japan's Chief Karate Instructor.

    The origins are riddled with the militaristic/political tones of the Japanese government at the time... with Wado Ryu itself also meaning 'Original Japan' Way...

    There are rumours :rolleyes: of involvement with some shady organisations too.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2011
  6. shotokanster

    shotokanster New Member

    I believe our Association was once part of the jka then their was a split and it become Karate Union of Scotland South and North then the Budokan association was born.

    I have been told by our club founder Alex Mcgregor who was one of the forefathers of Karate in Scotland, i think he might have ran the national team at one point. Their are loads of links and info regarding our founder he has taught many great practicioners.
  7. Quincyma80

    Quincyma80 Valued Member

    It was before the war. (Diargo beat me to this)

    Perhaps some of the controversy was how much of Funakoshi's acceptance during his first decade on the mainland was due to his #1 student Hironori Ōtsuka?

    Wadō-ryū karateō-ryū

    Hironori ŌtsukaŌtsuka
  8. Th0mas

    Th0mas Valued Member

    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  9. Th0mas

    Th0mas Valued Member

    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  10. Th0mas

    Th0mas Valued Member

    Just a few further points to add to Fish of Dooms comprehensive history.

    Gichin Funakoshi took the approach to make the Okinawan art more acceptable to a Japanese public, Hence the changing of the kata names

    In addition there was a concious decision by gichin funakoshi to downplay certain elements of karate training so that it did not encroach on KANO's Judo - Kano was supporting Funakoshi in Japan and Karate was seen as complimentary. This is why a lot of the training of throws and grappling was de-emphasised.

    Also Sporting prowess was a major draw in japan, especially after the War, which meant that the focus of training was shifted to winning competetions rather than trainig in self-protection.

    And finally most of the Karate diaspora that came out of Japan in the 60's were tornament champions - essentally propagating a more sport orientated sylabus (no fault of their own, they were young at the time and it was all they knew).

    (caveat: these are hypothesis not facts)
  11. yuen

    yuen Valued Member

    in my opinion, sports karate will benefit you in a sporting environment, a much greater extent than tranditional karate.

    however, my favour is in tranditional karate. the reason is that you can understand more of the katas and may be (but im not certain) that it can help you more in a real life situation as the purpose for karate for the first place is your 'self defence'.

  12. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    i once thought they were roundhouses. Then i realized when people raise their legs and smack their foot with their hand doing bassai dai, they are doing crescent kicks.
  13. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Well Kanazawa did used to teach empi with roundhouse kicks for a while.
  14. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Why do they smack their foot with their hand? :confused:
  15. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    They don't , it's the other way round.
    The accepted bunkai is that you grab hold of your opponent , then kick them.
  16. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    Either way, it makes a loud smacking noise. :)
  17. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Cheers again Bassai.

    got any video of the bunkai in question mate? I watched the kata but trawling through x amount of karate bunkai is a pretty heavy going way to spend a saturday evening in :hat:
  18. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    This is a fair representation of what you'll see a lot of dojo

    [ame=""]The Nakayama Legacy - Bassai Dai Bunkai (Karate Shotokan) - YouTube[/ame]
  19. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Gah, that's why I don't like bunkai when it's tied so slavishly to the moves of the kata.

    How many times does a guy throw a couple of punches, get blocked, and lose interest and wander off?
  20. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Was it the the bit at 0:34???

    edit sorry 0:47??
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011

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