We have a few corrections guys who train with us and they love it. I try to keep in mind that in many cases, when we apply a "pain compliance or escorting technique" in a 'prison' type environment, often we are using it as a preventative measure (i.e. applying it to a compliant partner before he has chosen to resist) or applying to a person who is weakly resisting (e.g., separting them froma brewing conflict), or applying to a person who has already been taken down to the ground and controlled. These techniques work very well in applying handcuffs, getting people back to their feet, separating potential problems, etc. Once it escalates beyond that, I am not going to try to force a lock or escort on a fully resisting opponent, I need to soften him up first with strikes, kicks, takedowns etc in many cases. This is where is good that you are doing sparring as well. You might wish to try out some partner training where you have to go in and subdue your opponent (with empty hand or baton) and then put a controlling lock on and escort him to the other side of the dojang. Let him resist a bit and apply controlling force (pain compliance). This kind of training will give you more confidence and trust in your job. It's even better if you can play scenarios where you start off having to subdue your partner (in a modified sparring format) to apply a controlling lock/escort and then allow your partner to escalate it or escape and try to transition to the appropriate level of force/technique (lock or strike). Add in a holstered plastic sidearm to throw the weapons retention skils in there if you'd like! Even in your everyday training, even if you're just doing the old stand face to face and practice the locks on one another, have your partner resist a bit and practice transitioning to other locks or strikes and such. This is true and I think some of this is "OK" at the lower levels. For my lower level students, I am focusing on getting them to breathe correctly, control their emotions/power, fall correctly, develop a sense of awareness, work on proper striking, and developing the basic skills of the locks and throws. That's a lot of material to learn before we start making it harder and more resisting. At the lower levels, we start adding a little bit at a time (Once they have the first few locks, I add a partner who doesn't just stand there, but pulls or pushes in a pre-determined way... eventually to a more free style method). By the mid-color belt levels though, there needs to be resistance, transitioning (lock to lock and/or from level of force to a different level of force)
Exactly, but I expect this stuff to start popping up once we get a little closer to 1st Dan. A year in Hapkido is still relatively new for the average civilian practitioner, so there's so much technique still to learn that we've only skimmed over theory and application so far. I'll keep note of this approach and try and get some guidance from my instructor as well.
I think this is a great attitude. Keep in mind that you can also advocate for yourself - talk with your instructor and mention that you'd like more practice on using HKD for your job requirements. I bet he will give you some guidance.
This has brought up some good points. Lower ranking students may lack practice or control to "spar" using some of Hapkido's material, but they can certainly do unbalancing, takedowns, and striking. It may take some practice to apply some locks. While I certainly don't see sparring as the TKD style, I see it as a single skill where the opponent is subdued or rebuffed....then the stage is "reset" and they start again. There seems to be a great deal of discussion included here about compliant training. Any technique can be pulled off with noncompliant partners if the principles of the art are applied, the problem appears to be that much of this is not taught in many schools. Here is a thing to try if most of your training is compliant...keep your elbows close to your body and use your hips to drive motion. Choi Dojunim taught no stances, but was a stickler for footwork. Any lock or control can be done against noncompliance as long as you are using your body, not hour arms to drive the motion. To me, off balancing does not just mean taking someone off their feet, but putting them in a position where it is slower for them to recover than it is for me to attack....if that makes sense. I fully agree that most grabbing in real fights, when it occurs, is for ranging a punch, but our ultimate goal in Hapkido is to have an ability to control an opponent with our own grab if needed. High collar/neck grabs are often very easily subdued by changing the direction of the attack from lateral to vertical, like lifting a pry bar upwards. OK, hope some of that makes sense.
We dress up one guy in TKD gear (chest protector, headgear, etc.). He is the attacker and his job is to put pressure on the other guy. At the higher belts, anything goes. The other guy's (or gal) job is to win the fight.
Hey guys I am a bit confused. Are you saying that sparring is an essential parT in training and without it training is useless? Or is it okay to not spar and do situational/ scenario stuff ( where there is aggressor and victim)? Because in my school we do not spar ,we relay on scenario stuff. I really find it usefull but I do not know if it would really become useless In reall fighting situation and my training will go out of the window because I do not spar.
We have sparring classes, but there not mandatory to attend. But there is sparring on the black belt test, so if you're going for your black belt you have to practice sparring. Edit: We use tkd gear when we spar. Chest protector is optional.
There needs to be some sort of training component that 'tests' what you are doing/learning. Ideally you should be learning the legal aspects, the vocalization aspects/body language, de-escalation, and so on as well. I think for 'self defense', you really need to do scenario work a lot - this is where you will develop the sense of what level of force you use, deal with the language and aggressive (or non-aggressive) body movement, and resolve a situation using the lowest level of force needed. This can be done by practicing back and forth with different grabs/attacks and responses and then can be escalated to multiple attackers, third party protection, red man suits and so on. The bottom line is that at certain points of your training, you need to try out your skills with as much force as needed against a determined attacker (with some safety limits). Sparring is a tool that can be used for this as well. By changing up levels of contact, types of pads, and preliminary scenario work, you can work the higher levels force against a resisting opponent. This can be done in conjunction with scenario training as well. Bottom line - there needs to be some sort of mechanism for trying out what you are learning against a determined aggressor, sparring and scenario work are very good tools for doing this. If you are not doing any of this, speak to your instructor and see how s/he fills this need...
well, we do EVERYTHING you mentioned except for sparring I asked my teacher and he said it is because we train on attacking the vulnerable targets ( eyes, throat and groin) to end the fight as quick as possible but in sparring we can not do that because we cannot go full on. but I find it extremely usefull even without sparring.
Sounds good. As far as the 'vulnerable targets' go, you can train them in sparring if you turn the speed and power down. Additionally sometimes those types of attacks will NOT be justified by the level of force, for example, let's say some guy is yelling at me and blocking me from leaving and it reaches the point where I feel I need to use force (I wasn't able to avoid or de-escalate and haven't been able to slip out). At this point, a nice roundhouse kick to the side of his thigh (to the big blood vessel there) to stun the leg (and hopefully drop him) should give me a chance to escape without doing serious damage. This would be preferable to a shot in the groin, eyes or throat, where I might end up getting charged with excessive force. I can train the roundhouse kick in sparring to represent when we've reached the level of force where I have to strike and I know he is trying to hit me but when neither of us are going up the level of force. Sparring is a useful tool and can be modified, adapted, and applied to fit whatever needs you have.
I would add that in order to actually use techniques you must have correct distance and timing. This can only be developed by practicing on partners who are moving UNPREDICTABLY, without set patterns. You need the elements of distance and timing to attack vulnerable targets, as well as in sparring with restricted targets. Catching an arm bar off a punch you know is coming simply does not develop this-no matter how many times you do it. You will also have a better chance of being able to hit vulnerable targets if you do some sort of contact sparring with restricted targets. Learning hapkido (combat, traditional, or whatever) in a club that does not train against unpredictably moving partners (which is most schools and clubs) will not help. This does not necessarily mean dueling type sparring however. The ability to use standing joint locks against non-compliant partners requires correct training methods that most instructors simply do not understand. Thomas has outlined some methods that I think are good for getting to this level.
we train on timing and distance too but not in sparring. we do another method to practice that, not sure what my instructor calls it though. but from your saying, I have more confidence in my training strategy thanks
In MuSool Hapkido we do a number of different sparring drills as well as different types of sparring so we practice at the different ranges of a fight. This comes after we drill different techniques from each range. Here are some of the drills/sparring we do: Both students have boxing gloves on. Both are allowed to kick, punch and do any throw/takedown you can with boxing gloves on. One student is the "striker" and one student is the "thrower". The striker wears boxing gloves and is allowed to kick or punch the thrower. The throwers job is to get the striker to the ground while getting hit or kicked the least amount of times. The strikers job it to work over the thrower and not give him an opening to throw. Both students are throwers and the student that gets the other student to the ground wins. Much like a judo match. Both students are throwers and grapplers. Much like a Jiujitsu match. Leading up to these sparring drills the beginning student has baby step drills where we teach a piece of a fight and drill that piece until the student has it. A good example of this is one student punches the other to the head, wearing boxing gloves, and the second student works on timing/distance control and closing the gap. Just my two cents, for what it is worth.
I always taught Hapkido 1 and three step sparring techniques. These always end in a throw, a joint break or a combination of both. I have 10 that I do teach.
If your teacher really said that and more importantly if he really believes that then you need to find a new teacher.
we do sparring and it could be considered a spectrum. on one end, we 1)do scenario training with varying resistance and without choreography, or 2)we spar at moderate speed with some give and take attacks without fully going into your opponent. it's probably similar in mentality to 'soft work' found in systema, but the actual movement principles are different. we call this 'analyze'. On the other end, we spar continuously using full contact rules similar to kyokushin and mma with submission, pin or hard stopping strikes causing a restart. we call that 'on the mats'. after enough practice, it's easy to actually transition from 'analyzing' to 'mat work'. for people who only drill locks in a reactionary way, i recommend looking at how the systema people do it (our school doesn't have any vids up), but keeping in mind that it's not realistic application, but conceptual training in a more free environment. Here are some examples [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_yQls4w9_o"]Systema Master Class 2011 - Martin Wheeler - YouTube[/ame] [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVgCO0lUO8Y"]Scott Sonnon Softwork Fighting Martial Art - YouTube[/ame]
While I can see some of the concepts, I think this type of training may have less value to beginners. I'm not saying it doesn't have its place but I think people need to be careful with it.
like i said, it's conceptually similar in that you are not moving at top speed and are continuous. you are working the concept of flow. the techniques and approach to movement are different. simply grinding it out full contact can teach a lot but can also miss a lot. you can simplify or expand it as much as you want. of course an instructor or senior will guide it. however, beginners don't do this. it's drills first.
