Spanish Influence on FMAs

Pat I believe you are part of the FMA culture. I see your system and clubs. Fact. More than me that you are FMA. I am the one asking you about techniques. I am being nice, but I am being truthful too.

I was just ironing out some things about your information in earlier posts in the thread.

I have been told many times i am a 'tourist' in the UK. LOL. But it doesn't get to me as it once did. The past.

Medico,

LOL! I don't go to those places. Hairy places! There is nothing there for me anyways. I stick to my bubble and thankful for what I got. Mob rule. Yikes.

 

Kibble I agree with you but in order to get to the centre of the truth sometimes you have to start from both extremities and chip away at the outside in order to reveal its centre.

Invisi. I think your more than a tourist but you also have to bear in mind some people can be or choose to be ignorant of their own culture and past and others accept it for what its worth. You would be surprised on just how many Brits are ignorant of their own culture and how many foreigners can educate them on it. That is fact.

Just because someone has an opinion on something outside their own bubble and just because they may have found a bit of information that will bring them to certain conclusions does not mean they are wrong or merely just tourists.

Reading your posts and your attitude to people and their discussions brings me to believe your actually more British than you care to realise or admit. We must be rubbing off on you

With the FMA there is a lack of evidence on both sides of the debate but just because the evidence has not surfaced yet does not mean it is not so. It does not mean it is so either but like all things historical. We have to make assumptions based on what little evidence lays before us and if you look at European martial arts systems of the period (15 to 1600's ) they have a lot more in common that some would care to admit and there is less evidence showing that FMA namely Eskrima Kali Arnis showing that it is a purely indigenous art.

I may be wrong and you may be right and visa versa but the one with the most items pointing to their part of the debate tends to hold a stronger argument wouldn't you agree?

Best regards

Pat

 

Ok... I'm in between PT's at the moment so no chance to respond in full. I still can't but help think that you've really... really... misunderstood what it is I'm on about. It's not in the least offensive. At least not in the way that I think you are taking it to be.

I'll come back and respond and point out where I think our misunderstandings might be... but first I got to knock out my last few clients and then I'll come back and go a bit deeper into it.

cheers,
Slip

 

GET OUT INVADER!!! Trying to dominate me!!! LOL (I am being theatrical here!) Must be my british inlination to theatrics! e.g. pantomine, etc.

When I was in the PI, i met an escrimador. He was practicing in Rizal park. We got into a conversation about kali and he told me that sepoy soldiers
part of a visiting british legation, were taught skills by local kalistas. I guess
these soldiers returned to India and passed on these skills onto indian eople? Then you can think spanish and local fighting skills were exported to India by way of the british military.

More than a tourist??? Is that worse or better than a tourist? hehehe.

Oh yes no dispute I'm British; I am registered here! Yes I know what the british are like!

Really? A foreigner telling a brit about their culture. It better not be in one of those pubs! They would slaughter that person! I think there are some british who know who they are. I think there are british who don't know who they are. I think there are british who don't care much for their culture, are we
talking - shakesphere, Keats, Burns, football, cricket. Maybe they are pre-occuppied with other things. I personally don't think an outsider should tell another person about their culture. The same would apply to and englishman, scotsman, welsh, irish, etc.

Agree? I don't have to agree with anything I don't want to agree with! hehehe. You sound like a father! hehehe. I think you just want me to agree with everything you say! Well I don't...because I don't have to; but I have my reasons. I will argue my point.

Ok Slipjab...np. cheers.

 

Outcomes can take a bad turn not necessarily because of inferior martial skills or firepower but because of faulty judgment or stratagem or bad timing.

They didn't believe they can invade the islands by the sword, did they? Otherwise, they won't resort to myths and fables to entertain the indios to cover their intention to rule the islands.

I agree. We learned how to dodge when they cut us. We learned how to jump when they shot us.

 

You don't mean boxing taught us how to punch, do you?

 

No not at all boxing was a very different game. You guys ( it is believed although not proven ) helped to change it into what we see today.

As I said before interaction can and does change things and some times for the better.

Best regards

Pat

 

And there are some FMA systems where boxing plays a role and some of the old Masters who where also good boxers. This in it's self would influence what they do within their FMA. And that is not nessisarily a bad thing is it?

Best regards

Pat

 

Simply because Filipinos had their own indigenous swords yet used more katanas than any other foreign swords combined. There are even FMA styles that were developed solely as a counter to the Japanese sword and fighting methods. All the Old Escrimadors are well-versed in ditsu which is Japanese. Old Masters occasionally picked up a katana to demonstrate sword methods or counter-sword methods. These facts/events/instances can be traced and verified. Nothing of the same nature can be said about the Spanish connection except that ancient and old mainstream FMAers served and performed before their senores. They were never taught by the Spaniards, they were slaves, servants and entertainers. The mercenaries from Macabebe and Cebu acted as henchmen to oppress and annihilate those who opposed the rule of Los Dioses Nuevos. They were not really mercenaries as the term generally suggests, but were simple 'Tulisan' or bandits. Don't tell me that these men were trained by the Spaniards with their superior Spanish sword methods and then preserved and handed to the present times as FMA.

I am only familiar with all the stick methods from around the world who show or publish their art for everyone to see. Sword methods? That's tricky. Aside from scanning those cryptically written European books about sword fighting, seeing contemporary Japanese and Chinese sword arts and reading some koryu tales, I know nothing about any sword art other than my own. But I know Sinawali and its origins and influences can be of any nationality but the Spanish.

 

No, not at all! Boxing is great and I have a deep respect for it and for those who practise it and incorporate it into their FMA.

 

I would say You are correct and that all boxers are Not great either and that's ok too but it does have its benefits too and is a great thing to incorporate to any fighting system.

I am also not saying the Spanish where the best swords men around either that is more than likely a great bit of PR on their part as they did not always fair well against some of their neighbours. I am a firm believer in that is not the art that makes the man great but the man who makes the art great.

Now if you learn a fighting system regardless of where it is from so that you can learn to counter it ( as you mention with the Japanese ) it cannot help but influence and change what you do from that point on.

And you say Siniwali can be influenced by any nation except the Spanish? So are we saying the Vikings influenced Siniwali or could have? I think you have to think that one through and rephrase that statement as all it sounded like to me was simply an anti Spanish retoric.

I can understand why you would have anti Spanish tendencies I know many of my fellow countrymen have anti English ones because of what happened hundreds of years ago but they have to admit ( even if they don't openly do so ) there was a major influence from the English in more ways than one and visa versa.

So are you saying that just because let's say a Spanish swordsman who exchanged ideas with a Pinoy swordsman whom he was fighting along side and the Pinoy swordsman seen a more efficient way to improve his skills and visa versa. Are you saying that the Pinoy swordsman or the Spanish swordsman would totally discount it out of national pride? Or do you think they spud adopt it and adapt it to suit and if the need arose use it against them?

If you think about it. The odds of it not happening would be simply too large to discount it would it not?

Best regards

Pat

 

Gabriel "Flash" Elorde

Long before boxing, Gabriel "Flash" Elorde learned eskrima from a Lolo Luis Abayon Elorde (I believe this was his father?) from Carcar, Cebu.

 

And I'm sure his FMA would have influenced his boxing.

Best regards

Pat

 

Nationality doesn't not influence a fighting style individuals do. If you looks at European arts we may use the term German Longsword or Spanish Rapier but what we are really saying is an generic name for a specific school of an art. All of these specific arts have a multitude influences from a variety of masters over time. War is a evolving system and you learn from all available sources, it's only when an art is no longer in use that people become concerned about it's origin rather than it's efficacy.

The Bear.

 

cool- where'd you get the stats for that?

see, the part where you lose me is when you state that something is non-existent in spanish or european sword methods, and that it looks more chinese than spanish, but then claim to have no knowledge of those methods, or only knowledge gained from scanning cyptic books. so, you can understand how it appears to me you're operating from a lack of knowledge, and so basing your claims on what you want to be true. if not, please clarify.



tim

 

PB, I agree with the first part of your post, that the individual makes the art. Certainly in FMA it is the likes of Ilustrisimo, Gaje, Canete, Bacon etc. who are revered. (Off topic I wonder for example what Korean nationalists would make of the world's most famous Tang Soo Do practitioner being a big American Ginger Bearded Texas Ranger )

As for people concerning themselves with efficacy while in use and origin afterwards, I disagree. In terms of sports MAs, people are continually trying to tie down the origin and history of arts, whilst simultaneously making them work. In military conflict, this is also the case - research is conducted into the use of weapons and tactics, who used them, where they used them, why they used them, because it helps inform what does work.

I know from your Posts that you're a WMA swordwielder, so you can appreciate that there are questions on the use of Spanish and Filipino blades such as: would the civilian or military fighting techniques of the Spanish have been any use for people not wearing Spanish 16th-18th Century armour? Would they have used the same swords? If not, could they wield the weapons they did use in the same way? Would the Spanish landing there have been at the cutting edge of fighting techniques, or sailors who occasionally swung swords around?

I agree that it is perfectly possible to become fully proficient in the art without knowing about the origin (or the physics, biology, linguistics), but I think it makes the study of the art richer. And often looking at these things closer to the time saves mugs like us having to take a stab in the dark many years later!

 

You see, I don't have to prove that FMA has no connection with the Spanish sword methods. My stand is a lot of factors contributed to what we know as FMA today, and the Spanish connection if there's any is just one if not the least. The burden of proof lies to those who claim that there was a significant FMA-SSA connection.
Sinawali is apparently Asian, but if you can show any Spanish fencers twirling their sticks(or swords), then that would be interesting to see.
Some FMAers tend to look for connections between FMA and the Spanish sword skills and totally bypass, discount and ignore any other possible connections and influences. Why is that?

 

any sort of rational discourse demands that someone who claims the truth of something provides some form of evidence to substantiate their claim, regardless of whether they claim a significant connection, or no connection. the only statement in that regard that doesn't require 'proof' is that the connection is unknown. claiming that only those who hold the opposite of your opinion need to 'prove' it is disingenuous.


tim

 

People have their own reasons why they say what they say. When I say something especially on forums, I don't want to convince people or convert them to take my own beliefs and bias. What I'm trying to do is to incite doubt so that people won't stop questioning the veracity of any claim or proclamation. People will then refuse to accept popular truths and search for the truth themselves.

 

making contrary proclamations with certainty is a strange way to incite doubt and question veracity. it's often at odds, because it can cause people who would like to believe what you say to believe it without question. i don't understand why, if your purpose is to promote the questioning of veracity, that you wouldn't simply question a claim's veracity in the first place, leading by example, rather than doing exactly the opposite of what you want others to do.


tim