Spanish Influence on FMAs

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Martial novice, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    i don't see how stating that someone forms a speculation out of ignorance is a personal attack. ignorance is a state of unawareness or being uninformed. if someone makes a claim about spanish rapier and dagger influencing fma, without having knowledge of spanish methods of rapier and dagger use, they are making a claim out of ignorance. if no source is cited, what else can be said? that said, i'll refrain from it if it offends someone.

    personally, i don't believe it is. still researching.

    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  2. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    ...we are already how to write (silat,sulat and suyat) maybe we influence them.MARADJAO KARADJAO!
  3. invisi

    invisi Valued Member

    I am going to be bold and post a poem that I would like to share. I feel it relevant to the situation today and the fighting or noble warrior spirit. There is an FMA connection, even a spanish connection when you read some of the words. Have to get this off my chest.


    The Line In The Night

    If we passed each other,
    On a street, in a town.
    If we noticed each other,
    There'd be curse on our tongues.
    Now the world we once knew,
    Is no longer how we know it.
    No time for the past.
    We're the last and we know it.

    I'm now on a ship,
    Leaving behind a lost past.
    A past that was alive,
    Moments flying sky high.
    A sky that was filled,
    With hopes and of dreams.
    A dark storm is ahead,
    All static and mean.

    Boundwards for Frisco,
    To join volunteers.
    The EU Contingent,
    That the enemy will fear.
    To fight and to die,
    For a principle of freedom.
    For the sovereignty of people,
    Irelevant of difference.

    Arrive in the port,
    And depart from the ship.
    With the dearest of things,
    I don't carry no bling.
    A six-string and sonnets,
    She inspired me to write.
    She gave all to me,
    The best year of my life.

    Assigned to my unit,
    And then my platoon.
    A mixed up hairy bunch,
    Of hotheads and buffoons.
    Weeks of intense training,
    Where the insults insued.
    I become an instructor.
    The one they look up'ta.

    Assigned to our area,
    We dig into the ground.
    My foxhole I share,
    With my buddy Brad Dare.
    We share out the beer,
    Music blasts in our ears.
    We party too much,
    Coz it's good for our hearts!

    Some others retire,
    I get out my guitar.
    I play her songs sweetly,
    Which I remember completely.
    A few others listen.
    Now the others have gone,
    A moment in the night.
    Then it's time to move on.

    There's sentries on patrol,
    Updates from west control.
    Lines have been broken,
    Upper units have spoken.
    It's the night of all nights,
    And we're next in the line.
    My spirit's are fighting,
    Because I'm really just frightened.

    These are my bolos,
    Like doble baston.
    These that i keep,
    To protect where I'm weak.
    This is my gun,
    Which to take I let none.
    A carbine assault rifle,
    Which will do when I'm done.

    We find ourselves waiting,
    In the dead of the night.
    The air has no life,
    We know of the price.
    The night sky illuminates,
    There are flashes and thuds.
    Our peers in the distance,
    The thought in the instance.

    We love the line,
    Because this is our religion.
    We defend her to the death,
    Engraved it on our heads.
    Because we are noble,
    We don't fight for the elite.
    Because they are the offenders!!!,
    And we know we're the defenders!!!

    "Lock and load!!!",
    "The b'stards are coming!!!".
    Pass the ammunition my brother!
    As we embrace one another.
    High fives, chest pounds, bear hugs
    And smiles.
    Screwed up faces,
    As we take on our places.

    The light and the heat,
    Does as it scorches our bodies.
    Some of us push on,
    Despite the piles of bodies.
    The strength of all strength,
    For those that push on.
    I've emptied my ammo clips,
    And refrain to a movie clip.

    In my pure warrior mind,
    I see the enemy of mankind.
    They have scaly skin,
    And the stench of their kind.
    I charge on ahead,
    Double bolos in motion.
    Fast figures of eight,
    With no patience to wait.

    The blades then connect,
    Bent knees for the chamber.
    My lead is a Spanish five,
    Abanico my deadly surprise.
    As I thrust at their hearts,
    Slash my way at their parts.
    They're now on the run,
    I'll just chase till I'm done.
  4. Gulogod

    Gulogod Valued Member

    I can't say that I get it, but what the heck, I love poems.:)
  5. shuyun3

    shuyun3 Shugyosha

    If there is anything to be said about Filipinos that Filipinos in general are proud of is integrating various influences and appropriating them as Filipino.

    Filipinos owned the texting scene as the most prolific texters in the world though Filipinos did not invent the cellphones.

    Jeepneys began as modified US Army jeeps.

    FMA names are mostly non Filipno in origin, FMA, Escrima, Arnis, Silat, Kuntao and the dubious Kali.

    Rizal's ideas and ideologies of freedom are European in origin as well, he read French Philosophers as well and had correspondences with an Austrian and wrote his novels in European Languages.

    The Filipino brand of Democracy is American, the superstitions folk-Catholicism the language group Austronesian.

    No, I don't agree that only Filipinos understand the Filipino psyche much like another nationality can't make a similar claim.

    Similar problems give rise to similar solutions. In those 300+ years of Spanish occupation Filipino fighters would have come across spanish style fencing and i assume the dueling sword and dagger configuration as was popular in Europe. So in the very least if Filipinos did not get Spanish instructors they certainly formulated counters to Spanish techniques and in some ways needed to simulate and then later emulate to improve.

    Martial Arts never develop in isolation
  6. Gulogod

    Gulogod Valued Member

    yeah, maybe we influenced them! maradjao karadajao!:fight1: We have spanish names, maybe we came from spain?
  7. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member is only religion that take place.BATIKANG KALAGA!
  8. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    the spanish schools of fencing from the late 16th century on is pretty well-documented, and its pretty safe to say that filipino methods did not influence them.

    a lack of documentation about the filipino methods from that era is what leaves the question of influence in the other direction open.

  9. Gulogod

    Gulogod Valued Member

    What I meant was we Pinoys influenced how the non-pinoys view FMA. Most mainstream FMA with the exception of the kali groups presupposed a Spanish influence in FMA without supporting evidence. No documents from the Spanish. No anecdotes from the Pinoys. No myths and legends. No folk tales. Nada. Yet you can hear this 'Spanish influence' spoken by non-pinoys as if its a proven fact. Where did they learn this? Of course from Pinoys! Pinoys speak of 'Spanish influence' as if they were there at the time.
  10. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    ...those manuscript was for theatrical purposes only.Talimunong Lagalag!
  11. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Lutang in Spanish?


    Here's more Venezuelan "eskrima"/"arnis", couldn't help but think how similar this was to GM Tatang Ilustrisimo's movements, most notably his signature move, Lutang. There's also the Pluma, and others present. Here's a list of different Ilustrisimo moves from another forum:

    The question here is, we know that GM Tatang Ilustrimo was from Bantayan Island, Cebu, he spoke Cebuano. Did he start out using all Spanish or Cebuano terms when moving to Manila, then transitioning to using Tagalog terms we see above? Maybe there's a Spanish term for Tatang's Lutang footwork, and these guys would know the term.
  12. Gulogod

    Gulogod Valued Member

    Did the system of GM Ilustrisimo come from the Spanish? How about Doce Pares? They use some Spanish words. Do the Canete bros say that the DP style had Spanish influence? How about the PTK? They have such Spanish words like contradas and recontras. Do they say that their system were influenced by the Spaniards? If it was so, then how? They should have a history. They should know.
  13. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Lutang in Spanish II

    Already covered in the preceding pages.

    Since these old Venezuelan abuelos (Lolos) are so inclined to using what looks like GM Ilustrisimo's signature Lutang (to float), it would be interesting to know what they called this very unique footwork/technique in Spanish.
  14. Gulogod

    Gulogod Valued Member

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I have a feeling that most of the non-Spanish terms in your list including the term 'Lutang' are recent 'inventions'. Even the Spanish sounding Cuatro Cantos looks odd, it translates as 'Four Stanzas'! If it is supposedly Spanish to mean ' Four Corners', then it should be, 'Cuatro Esquinas' noh?
  15. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Lutang in Spanish III

    Since the non-Spanish terms on that list are mostly Tagalog, and GM Ilustrisimo is from Cebu, Bantayan, I'm assuming the same also. Bisaya/Cebuano would probably be Lutaw. But it would be more interesting if the Venezuelan Lolos have a Spanish term for their Lutang.

    Kanto means corner in Tagalog. Cebuanos use eskina. There was definitely a Tagalogization. It'd be interesting to see what GM Regino Ilustrisimo's terms/names of techniques were. He settled in Stockton, CA, I think directly from Cebu province, so the assumption here is that he didn't have to use Tagalog.
  16. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    'canto' means a lot of things in spanish, including edge, rim, and corner.

  17. Gulogod

    Gulogod Valued Member

    I don't think that Cuatro Cantos is Spanish. It is Tagalog. My contention is that the term is recent and not an old Ilustrisimo term unless an Ilustrisimo would say otherwise.
    IMO, the Venezuelans' Lutang is more akin to Bahad Zubu than GM Ilustrisimo's.
    Lutang of Bahad Zubu ​

    GM Ilustrisimo​
    [ame=""]YouTube - Tatang Ilustrisimo Knife and Stick Technique Demo[/ame]
  18. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    i can't speak to the history of kalis ilustrisimo. however, the words 'cuatro cantos' mean 'four corners' in both spanish and tagalog. do you mean to say that whomever named the drill was familiar with the words through tagalog, and not through spanish?

  19. Gulogod

    Gulogod Valued Member

    Yes, that's what I wanted to say but of course I wouldn't know if that's correct.
  20. Gulogod

    Gulogod Valued Member

    Spanish words or more accurately Spaniard-ish words have been embedded within the Filipino language for so long and so deeply that it's no longer practical to assume that a thing with a Spanish name would automatically have Spanish origins. Even newly coined words can be Spanish sounding yet have no relations to the Spanish whatsoever. Filipino language has acquired quite a few Spanish characteristics but the language is still Filipino and not Spanish. I believe the same thing happened to FMA terminologies which sound Spanish. They only sounded Spanish but they did not come from the Spaniards. They were indigenously Filipino.

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