Spanish Influence on FMAs

Mananandata · Mar 7, 2011

Martial novice said: ↑

Well as has already been said, Spanish sword doesn't really exist in the same way it used to.
Interestingly though, I stumbled across this guy on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpdQFubPUo0&feature=related

The guy looking very severe at 0:19 is, according to another vid trying to revive Spanish fighting arts. He is presumably facing the same problems that most Western Martial Arts revivers are - using old manuals etc.
But while his long cane work looks very fencing orientated, if you told me the knife style was an FMA, I would have no problem believing you.

Just to address a quick aspect of the 'body only moves so many ways'. Here is another Youtube of Brazilian knife fighting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-iNZX_WA14&feature=related

Brazil has an obvious Portuguese connection, but notice how in their training to avoid a knife strike, they weave the body out of range while the feet are planted. This is VERY different from the FMA principle of footwork, especially zoning triangles.

The FMA footwork, however, looks a lot like that Spanish knife video. Now the big question - if he is recereating the history, is it the Spanish style that influenced FMA, or is he maybe reviving the 'Spanish' style, which had already evolved with Filipino influence?
Click to expand...

I really like the second video. Brazilians really do fight. That is obvious in that video. It is different from mainstream FMA but those movements are not alien to Pinoys. I read a book of Punong Guro Edgar Sulite about fifteen years ago showing those exact movements. I can't remember the title of the book, so just buy all his books.

Mananandata · Mar 8, 2011

An excerpt from Mr Mark Wiley's book. Take some LEADS not conclusions.
And please, don't use the quote to smear Mark Wiley's name just because you hold an opposing opinion.
Emphases (i.e. words in bold letters) and some omissions are mine.

Originally From Mark V. Wiley's book Filipino Martial Culture

The recording and documentation of history is an arduous and often difficult undertaking. While reading about history we frequently believe the point of view of the author; however, this is often incomplete and inaccurate. In particular, when tracing the origin of an art of war, such as Eskrima, it is often difficult to string together the bits and pieces of fragmented information into chronological order. Also, since the exact origin of the art was never documented by those who were directly responsible for its founding, much is left to speculation and the cross-referencing of pertinent information to historical events in the surrounding geographical region.

INTRODUCTION

Centuries old, the Filipino warrior arts have long been the backbone of Filipino society. It was the practice and preservation of these arts that have kept the Philippine archipelago from permanent domination by a foreign power. There are several hundred styles of these warrior arts presently being preserved and taught throughout the Philippines. Although known by many names, often descriptive of the styles and names of their founders and enemies (i.e., Binas Arnis, Italiana style), the Filipino warrior arts can be classified by three distinct territorial styles --Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali -- that are found in the northern, central and southern Philippines, respectively.

It has been postulated that the Filipino art of Escrima originated in India and that it was brought to the Philippines by people who traveled through Indonesia across a land bridge known as the Riouw archipelago that linked the Malay peninsula to Sumatra, and across another land bridge that connected Malaya to the Philippine islands. Indonesian Tjakalele and Malay Silat Melayu are two forms of combat said to have been introduced to the Philippines via these now-sunken routes. The ninth century Tang dynasty brought goods to the Philippines from East Asia and Malaysia. These countries' combat methods of Kuntao and Silat had a great influence on the development of Kali... Legends claim that ten Datus (chieftains) left Borneo and settled in Panay where they established the Bothoan in the twelfth century. The Bothoan was a school where the Datus taught Kali along with academic subjects and agriculture. It was a kind of preparatory school for tribal leaders.

During the fourteenth century, a third migration of Malaysians to the Philippines took place. These immigrants were the ancestors of the Moro (Muslim) Filipinos of Mindanao and Sulu. They spread their cultural-religious beliefs as well as their Kali systems, which utilized bladed weapons of varying lengths. Datu Mangal is credited with bringing the art of Kali to Mactan Island; Sri Bataugong and his son Sri Bantug Lamay were said to have brought the art to the island of Cebu during the Majapahit Empire. Raja Lapu Lapu, the son of Datu Mangal, through constant struggle and war, developed a personalized Kali subsystem known as Pangamut. In the sixteenth century, he and Raja Humabon, the son of Sri Bantug Lamay, began to quarrel. A battle was mounting as Lapu Lapu accused Humabon of wrongfully taking land that belonged to his father. The battle, however, was never to take place, as the Philippines were unexpectedly visited by the Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan.

In the early part of the sixteenth century, the Spanish set sail in search of a westward route across the Pacific to the Indies. Commander Ferdinand Magellan's fleet of ships accidentally stumbled upon an unknown archipelago. On March 16, 1521, Magellan came upon the island of Samar. He decided that it was in his best interest to wait to attack, and thus dock at a nearby island. This island was uninhabited and so Magellan's fleet took a few days of needed rest.

On March 18, the Spaniards took note of a boatload of natives coming toward their ships. Commander Magellan, seeing a strange opportunity, greeted them in friendship. This friendship was to develop, and the native islanders familiarized Magellan with the names of the surrounding islands that made up the archipelago. With assistance of the ship's priest, Magellan baptized Raja Kolambu, the chief of Samar, and also Raja Humabon, the chief of Cebu, converting them to Catholicism and ultimately Spanish allegiance.

On April 27, Magellan led an expedition to nearby Mactan Island in hopes of conquering and then presenting it as a git to Raja Humabon. Unfortunately, as he and 49 Spanish conquistadors disembarked from their ships, they were confronted by 1,050 islanders, led by Raja Lapu Lapu, armed with iron-tipped fire-hardened bamboo lances and pointed fire-dried wooden stakes. Greatly outnumbered, Magellan was killed by the spears and arrows of Lapu Lapu's men.

In 1543, Ruy de Villalobos, sailing from New Spain (Mexico), landed south of Mindanao and proceeded to name the entire archipelago the PHILIPPINES after King Philip II of Spain. It was not until 1565 that Miguel Lopez de legazpi, authorized by Philip II, colonized the island of Cebu, and a foothold was secured in the Philippines. When the Spaniards traveled to the island of Luzon in 1570, they found it inhabited by Filipino, Chinese and Indonesian cross-cultures, and upon their arrival they were confronted by Kalistas (Kali warriors) whose fighting method far exceeded theirs. But the Spaniards, using firearms defeated the inhabitants of Luzon. From then on, the art of Kali was prohibited, but it was still practieced and perfected by a dedicated few. The arts were then preserved in native ritual dances called sinulog that had mock battles with swords as finales. Ironically, these dances were often performed for the Spaniards' enjoyment.

Kalistas practiced their arts diligently, and hence developed extreme accuracy, speed, and agility. These attributes were a must. Because the Spaniards' swords were sharp and readily cut through the Filipinos' wooden weapons, many strikes to nerve centres along the body and limbs were mastered, allowing the Kalista to disarm and disable his opponent with a flurry of attacks.

During the 330 years of Spanish reign, after many skirmishes with Spanish fencing exponents and after careful observation, the art of Kali was altered. Many training methods were dropped and many new concepts and techniques were added. This, coupled with the influence of Spanish culture and language, prompted the evolution of Eskrima (aka. Arnis de Mano). It was the Spanish rapier and dagger systems that had the greatest influence on the development of Eskrima. The use of numbered angles of attack as well as what have become traditional Eskrima uniforms, were both influenced by the Spanish. It is also interesting to note that although Tagalog is the national language of the Philippines, many of the top Eskrima masters still teach their arts in Spanish, today.
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onpoint · Mar 8, 2011

Mananandata said: ↑

An excerpt from Mr Mark Wiley's book. Take some LEADS not conclusions.
And please, don't use the quote to smear Mark Wiley's name just because you hold an opposing opinion.
Emphases (i.e. words in bold letters) and some omissions are mine.
Click to expand...

I've always liked Wiley's works.

Good job! Good find. Thanks for sharing some sources. You've redeemed yourself here.

onpoint · Mar 8, 2011

Kalista

Mananandata said: ↑

Kalistas practiced their arts diligently, and hence developed extreme accuracy, speed, and agility. These attributes were a must. Because the Spaniards' swords were sharp and readily cut through the Filipinos' wooden weapons, many strikes to nerve centres along the body and limbs were mastered, allowing the Kalista to disarm and disable his opponent with a flurry of attacks.
Click to expand...

Will you be calling yourself and your progenies Kalistas?

Because that's Spanish, like guitarrista. What will you call yourself now?:google:

Mananandata · Mar 8, 2011

onpoint said: ↑

Will you be calling yourself and your progenies Kalistas?

Because that's Spanish, like guitarrista. What will you call yourself now?:google:
Click to expand...

hehe.. Good question! No I won't call myself a kalista, perhaps a kalisto yeah. But I won't mind if others will call me that. It is NOT Spanish. Is there a kalista word in Spanish? Listo is Spanish, kalista is not. Kalista is definitely a NEW word. The MANNER it's conjugated is Castillian-ish but as a matter of fact, it is a new word coined by FMA guys.
And that's one of my THEORIES why certain FMA terminologies sound Spanish. Its CUSTOMARY for an ordinary Pinoy to speak and act like his masters(Los Senores). It does not necessarily mean that his acts and doings are DIRECTLY related to his masters. That's the farthest the Spanish influence on FMA goes AFAIC.

onpoint · Mar 8, 2011

CrossPollination and CrossRoads

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJZ38PtW3SI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJZ38PtW3SI[/ame]

Citom · Mar 8, 2011

wow, a whole page without personal attacks! I'm impressed!:happy:

Keep it up, friends and I just might be back...

onpoint · Mar 8, 2011

Mananandata said: ↑

hehe.. Good question! No I won't call myself a kalista, perhaps a kalisto yeah. But I won't mind if others will call me that. It is NOT Spanish. Is there a kalista word in Spanish? Listo is Spanish, kalista is not. Kalista is definitely a NEW word. The MANNER it's conjugated is Castillian-ish but as a matter of fact, it is a new word coined by FMA guys.

And that's one of my THEORIES why certain FMA terminologies sound Spanish. Its CUSTOMARY for an ordinary Pinoy to speak and act like his masters(El Senores). It does not necessarily mean that his acts and doings are DIRECTLY related to his masters. That's the farthest the Spanish influence on FMA goes AFAIC.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but if the point is to rid yourself of Spanish, then we must come up with something totally different. This is a cleansing.

How about Kalindata?

Mananandata · Mar 9, 2011

onpoint said: ↑

Yeah, but if the point is to rid yourself of Spanish, then we must come up with something totally different. This is a cleansing.
Click to expand...

No, I'm not trying to rid myself of Spanish, I am a serious student of anything Spanish. What I'm concerned of is the misconception about Pinoys in general and FMA in particular.

onpoint said: ↑

How about Kalindata?
Click to expand...

It sounds nice and suggestive of so many things. I like it.
Thanks for that YT link btw.

invisi · Mar 8, 2011

Pat OMalley · Mar 8, 2011

invisi said: ↑

Click to expand...

I get the first picture but not the last two. You have me interested. What are they about?

Best regards

Pat

Pat OMalley · Mar 8, 2011

Mananandata said: ↑

An excerpt from Mr Mark Wiley's book. Take some LEADS not conclusions.
And please, don't use the quote to smear Mark Wiley's name just because you hold an opposing opinion.
Emphases (i.e. words in bold letters) and some omissions are mine.
Click to expand...

I like Marks work he's a great guy met him and he is very humble and he trains my longest running student along side me.

But some of his findings in his early books has been questioned. But for the most part he has done great work in this field. And he is a great practitioner of the arts.

I have nothing but good things to say about him.

Best regards

Pat

invisi · Mar 8, 2011

A Foreign Warrior In The Filipino Struggle For Independance

I thought I'd share this with everyone. My kinda hero. This man joined the army, was treated badly by his army, saw the struggle of a weaker people, defected from his army and joined the struggle of filipinos.

This man faced 'against all odds'. If he was captured he would of been court-martialed and sentenced to death. He identified with the struggle of a weaker peope and risked his life for a better life for others.

Why is there no statue of this adopted 'filipino' revolutionary hero?

Here's the story:

David Fagen was the most celebrated of the handful of African American soldiers who defected to the Filipino revolutionary army led by Emilio Aguinaldo during the Filipino American War of 1899-1902. Fagen was born in Tampa, Florida around 1875. Details of his life remain sketchy. His father was a merchant and a widower. For a time he worked as a laborer for Hull’s Phosphate Company.

On June 4, 1898 at the age of 23, Fagen enlisted in the Twenty-fourth infantry, one of the four black regiments of that time that was coincidentally based in Tampa. Fagen would see combat a year later as he shipped off from San Francisco to Manila on June 1899. By then, the Filipino American war had been raging for four months, as Filipino patriots sought to defend their newly established Republic which they had won in a revolution against Spain. Fagen was soon in combat against Filipino guerillas in Central Luzon. Reports indicate that he had constant arguments with his commanding officers and requested to be transferred at least three times which contributed to his growing resentment of the army.

On Nov. 17, 1899, Fagen defected to the Filipino army. Winning the trust of the Filipinos he took sanctuary in the guerilla-controlled areas around Mount Arayat in Pampanga province. Fagen served enthusiastically for the next two years in the Filipino cause. His bravery and audacity were much praised by his Filipino comrades. Fagen was promoted from first lieutenant to captain by his commanding officer, General Jose Alejandrino on Sept. 6, 1900. Such was his popularity that Filipino soldiers often referred to him as “General Fagen.” His exploits earned him front page coverage in the New York Times which described him as a “cunning and highly skilled guerilla officer who harassed and evaded large conventional American units.”

Clashing at least eight times with American troops from Aug. 30, 1900 to Jan. 17, 1901, Fagen’s most famous action was the daring capture of a steam launch on the Pampanga River. Along with his men, he seized its cargo of guns and swiftly disappeared into the forests before the American cavalry could arrive. White officers were frustrated at their inability to capture Fagen whose exploits by now had begun to take on legendary proportions both among the Filipinos and in the U.S. press. Fagen’s success also triggered the fear of black defections (of which there were actually only twenty).

By 1901, American forces captured key Filipino leaders including Alejandrino and by March, Aguinaldo himself. Filipino leaders tried to secure amnesty for Fagen, but the Americans refused, insisting that he would be court-martialed and most likely executed. Hearing of this, Fagen, by now married to a Filipina, refused to surrender and sought refuge in the mountains of Nueva Ecija in Central Luzon. Branded a “bandit,” Fagen became the object of a relentless manhunt, with a $600 reward for his capture, “dead or alive.” Posters of him in Tagalog and Spanish appeared in every Nueva Ecija town, but he continued to elude capture.

On Dec. 5, 1901, Anastacio Bartolome, a Tagalog hunter, delivered to American authorities the severed head of a “negro” he claimed to be Fagen. While traveling with his hunting party, Bartolome reported that he had spied upon Fagen and his wife accompanied by a group of indigenous people called Aetas bathing in a river. Recognizing him from the wanted posters, the hunters attacked the group and allegedly killed and beheaded Fagen, then buried his body near the river. But this story has never been confirmed and there is no record of Bartolome receiving a reward. Official army records of the incident refer to it as the “supposed killing of David Fagen,” and several months later, Philippine Constabulary reports still made references to occasional sightings of Fagen.

To this day, it remain unclear what exactly became of David Fagen. His life after the war continued to be as mysterious as his existence before it. But his actions, largely forgotten in the United States, continue to be remembered in the Philippines as that of an African American man who heroically cast his lot with the Filipino revolutionaries to resist the injustice of American imperial designs.

Rafael, Vicente L.
University of Washington
Click to expand...

It is said that a journalist well after the Philippine-American war, around the 1930s/1940s, discovered an old african-american man living in the deep jungle. He spoke english and had a filipina wife and many children.

Just had to get this one off my chest.

onpoint · Mar 9, 2011

American Deserters

I'd like to know more about these American soldiers too. From the looks of it, there were more American deserters during the Philippine-American War than any other wars or conflicts the U.S. has been involved in. This would be a great book, maybe a compilation of their stories.

In Cebu, in Calamba Cemetery, there are quite a few Americans buried here (many were Black-Americans) who chose to stay in the Philippines instead of return to America. Most didn't die during the war, but died of natural causes in the 1920s and 1930s.

Calamba Cemetery in Cebu City:

onpoint · Mar 9, 2011

Enlistment Papers

Fagen's enlistment papers probably looked a lot like these:

invisi · Mar 9, 2011

A semi-fiction book on Donald Fagen was written:

Cousins Of Color

Note: I have also read that it was not just african-american soldiers defected, though the majority were, white soldiers were also known of to have defected. Maybe they were offered land lots, business opportunities by the revolutionary army.

There is also a new american produced film out, portraying the Philippine-US War:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na9zhyhAfxc"]Amigo (2010) Trailer[/ame]

Looks very brutal.

onpoint · Mar 9, 2011

The four "colored" regiments:

With the ending of the civil war the regular army of the United States was reorganized upon a peace footing by an act of Congress dated July 28, 1866. In just recognition of the bravery of the colored volunteers six regiments, the 9th and 10th Cavalry and the 38th, 39th, 40th, and 41st Infantry, were designated as colored regiments. When the army was again reduced in 1869, the 38th and 41st became the 24th Infantry, and the 39th and 40th became the 25th Infantry. This left four colored regiments in the regular army as it was constituted from 1870 until 1901.

http://race.eserver.org/the-negro-in-the-army.html

The four regular colored regiments have served in the Philippines. Here the work was particularly trying and the temptations to misconduct many. The Filipino women were especially attractive to the men because of their color, and it is on record that several soldiers were tempted from their allegiance to the United States. Two of these, whose sympathy and liking for the Filipinos overcame their judgment, paid the full penalty of desertion, being hanged by their former comrades. Both belonged to the 9th Cavalry. On the other hand, in a remarkable order issued by General A. S. Burt in relinquishing command of the 25th Infantry, on April 17, 1902, on his promotion to brigadier-general, he was able to quote the Inspector-General of the army as saying: "The 25th Infantry is the best regiment I have seen in the Philippines." General Burt praised highly the excellent conduct of the enlisted men while in the Archipelago, which proved to his mind that the American negroes are "as law-abiding as any race in the world."
Click to expand...

invisi · Mar 9, 2011

Other Stories of Bravery, Courage in PHL History

Onpoint,

Stories can sometimes evoke emotions. These are stories of bravery and courage and solidarity; to whatever degree of solidarity that is.

The siege of Baler was the last defense by the spanish colonial army in the PI. For at least a year after the spanish-american war ended, these spanish soldiers held out, thinking that the war had not ended. They were repeatedly told the war had ended, but their commander decided not to believe this, until their surrender a year after the war had ended, and they went home.

The Philippine revolutionary army; praised these spanish soldiers. They got respect.

In the Wiki entry:

General Emilio Aguinaldo, president of the Philippine revolutionary government, decreed that they were to be considered "not as prisoners of war but as friends". He further stated that "they realized an epic as glorious as the legendary valour of the son of El Cid and of Pelayo".
Click to expand...

Here is the link:

Siege Of Baler

Not to forget as seen the solidarity between US troops and Philippine troops in WWII; the battle of bataan. These soldiers fought a rear-guard to allow, Allied troops to escape the Japanese invasion. This mean't they knew they were not going to escape; fight to the death or captured. Those captured faced the death march and years in captivity in terrible conditions.

Battle Of Bataan

tim_stl · Mar 9, 2011

Mananandata said: ↑

An excerpt from Mr Mark Wiley's book. Take some LEADS not conclusions.
And please, don't use the quote to smear Mark Wiley's name just because you hold an opposing opinion.
Emphases (i.e. words in bold letters) and some omissions are mine.
Click to expand...

he states at the beginning that it's speculation. there are many holes in his speculations, most notably his obvious lack of knowledge of spanish methods of using the rapier. would you consider it smearing his name to point out the holes in his speculations?

tim

Mananandata · Mar 9, 2011

tim_stl said: ↑

he states at the beginning that it's speculation. there are many holes in his speculations, most notably his obvious lack of knowledge of spanish methods of using the rapier. would you consider it smearing his name to point out the holes in his speculations?

tim
Click to expand...

No I would not if you won't say that he formed his speculations out of ignorance. One can debunk theories/myths/ beliefs/speculations without resorting to personal attacks.

Now, going back to Sinawali which is common to all FMAers. Anything in Sinawali that can be connected to European martial arts? Manuals? Historical documents? Anecdotes?

If anybody wants to showcase their art as an example instead of Sinawali, they can do so.

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Spanish Influence on FMAs

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