They're stationed 20-30 minutes away from me. I should go check them out and ask to see this Iron Phoenix style.
hows it going ? I think it would be very interesting for you to see his so called iron phoenix but just like all the others like him they will not show it becouse they made it up and think its the best,so he will try and sign you up first then start teaching kempo. he is a very fat old grey haired guy that i met back in the late 90s and just wanted to steel a little of what i taught at the time his wife even tried to film me at a work out . salute! ps- belts and tech,s in an animal system?
Hey Law Hon Gung. It's been going pretty good. Had some rough times but got through them. How has everything been for you? Hope you've been doing well. My last post was meant to mock the Iron Phoenix style. I wouldn't be caught dead in that school. Salute
Agreed! Just listed to show that Al Moore taught Tracy's Chinese Kenpo until the early to mid 70's, this was not a endorsement. L.W.
Gotta Love This! Artist Janice Carpenter took the ideas of Sheng Chi's Phil and Liz Weaver and captured them on one of the center's walls. Sheng Chi unveils huge, symbolic wall painting By Nick Baptista Work has been completed on what might be the largest interior wall painting in Valley Springs. Phil and Liz Weaver of Sheng Chi Kung Fitness Center commissioned Glencoe artist Janice Carpenter and daughter Stacey Flora to paint a mural to grace the martial arts center’s 60-foot wide by 25-foot tall wall. Many members of the community got a sneak preview of the mural as the work was in progress when the Weavers hosted a Valley Springs Area Business Association mixer Aug. 17. “It tells a story in itself,” Carpenter said. Similar to the frescos inside the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican City, Sheng Chi’s mural is spiritual in nature. The mural pays homage to the Weavers’ da’shifu, or martial arts teacher, the late Al Moore Sr. and is filled with symbolism to bless the center with good energy, or “Chi.” The mural also has a village, courtyard, gate, mountains, creek, almond tree, bamboo, fire pot, Phoenix and seven animals, all with their own meaning. The animals depicted on the wall – the bear, tiger, mongoose, crane, mantis, cobra and dragon – display Shou Shu or the fighting ways of the animal, while the Phoenix represents the Weavers’ rebirth and when a Phoenix is present, it is a sign that all is good and honest in the kingdom. The mural is full of subtle nuisances. Phil explained that the water representation is a meandering creek, not rushing or stagnant water, both of which would be negative energy. The meandering creek represents Sheng Chi or positive energy, because that is the type of water most suitable for a settlement. The dragon in the center of the mural is a power dragon. It represents strength and power. The red lettering below the dragon represents battle art, while the gold lettering is a sign of royalty, he added. The gate has three levels and they represent the changes of life – learning, doing and teaching. “That’s what we’re all about,” said Phil. The courtyard is a representation of the studio. The courtyard is where the villagers studies kung fu. Carpenter and Flora spent 122 hours on the project. Carpenter said she receives her satisfaction in the knowledge that the Weavers are pleased with the mural. “I’m so pleased it tied so well together,” Carpenter said. :Angel: To see this mural of the (Spiritual, Truthfull, and that all is good and honest in the kingdom of Sheng Chi's, and the story of Al Moore and Shou Shu) click on link. http://www.valleyspringsnews.com/sept07_archives.htm
Breaking up is hard to do! Check out the time frame when Mr Weaver broke away from Al jr. and Ralph Moore's Shou Shu and started Sheng Chi. One month after Shun shifu Weavers e-mail to Al Tracy's, listed Subject: Sensitive Question. This could have been legal leverage for a way out of any contract with the Shou Shu organization. Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:00 AM To: shunshifuw@?.com Subject: Re: Sensitive Question Sorry to hear about Albert: Yes he and his brother studied kenpo with us in the late 60's and they were some of our original Black Belts. They actually did most of their studying under Bob Blackmore one of our Black Belts. Al Tracy By Phil Weaver It feels like forever and at the same time feels like only a few days ago. In reality it was exactly five years. On August 9, 2002 at 5:00 PM we met with Marylin Moore and informed her that we were leaving the organization. While I think the general perception among most was that it was the end for us, we insisted it was the beginning, and we were right. They looked as if we were dead or soon would be. There had been so many stories of those who had left or tried to leave before us. Stories of terrible things. Whether those stories were made up or true, what they created was real. Mr Weavers story. http://www.shengchikungfu.com/5_years I guess Mr Weaver does not understand these stories he is talking about at this time, are the stories that came while Al Moore was running the schools! This has been the standard MO of Al Moore. And you know Mr Weaver had heard this stories long before, so why the sudden surprise.
No Techniques in Shou shu. Al Moore's story about no techniques in Shou Shu just came from the history of kenpo, Mr Tatum talks about no techniques in the kenpo system when he first started, the system only had forms. Information came from a informed ex Shou Shu member. Information found on a Larry Tatum DVD. Engineer of Motion DVD,found on the larry Tatum kenpo web site. L.W.
Number of hits. We have found that more Shou shu students are now looking with a open mind to the new information. Here on MAP, you have had 100 hits on this thread in the last four days, somebody interested! Best Wishes. L.W.
Credit where it is due...and our sincerest gratitude. I have not visited this site in quite a long while, nor have I ever before been a member. The primary reason being that this site, despite its express purpose, behooves nothing. That said, one post in particular has been brought to my attention. Due to its somewhat libelous nature, I feel I must write an answer to it. If any of my dear readers feel slightly confused or disoriented from having read thus far, may I kindly suggest a dictionary? If you need further remedial assistance, I am afraid I can offer no advice beyond a GED course at your local community college (assuming you are old enough to attend such an institution). On to the matter at hand, viz.: Posted by: Law Hon Gung hows it going ? I think it would be very interesting for you to see his so called iron phoenix but just like all the others like him they will not show it becouse they made it up and think its the best,so he will try and sign you up first then start teaching kempo. he is a very fat old grey haired guy that i met back in the late 90s and just wanted to steel a little of what i taught at the time his wife even tried to film me at a work out . salute! ps- belts and tech,s in an animal system? Low Hung Gong, we want to be sure to give you credit for all of the techniques that were "steeled" from you when we allegedly filmed your workout. They have been most useful indeed. We have collected them all under the rubric "Steel Monkey," which serves as the complete antithesis of our Iron Phoenix material. Naturally, (your) "Steel Monkey" is a very secret belt and we only teach it to a select, special few -- unreliable and untrustworthy people who truly deserve to get themselves hurt in a fight. We would have gladly taught you the entire corpus of material, but you already knew it all. If you now know different material, may we please invite you to be filmed again? We are in desperate need of a complementary belt to the "Steel Monkey." I'm thinking we could call it the "Steel Chimera" and disseminate it to those who deserve to get themselves hospitalized. And, by the by, Mr. Gong, in case you are a certain someone, I just want to express my personal gratitude to you for hosting that dinner in the late 1990s (at Elmer's on 82nd). I still tell people about your request that I help you to sell "Tiger Milk Bars" at a planned seminar/demonstration. And the reason you wanted to sell the "Tiger Milk Bars" was even lovelier -- to "make more money." So ends my dawdling amongst the illiterati. Now, if you don't mind, I shall take my leave. I have such things as work, friends, family, writing, and (!) martial arts practice to devote my time to. From the posts I've read, very few of you have such concerns to occupy your time. Good day. PS Speaking for myself and not as a representative of our studio, thank you, Mr. Waters, for your research. I might quibble a tad over your conclusions, but I certainly won't deny your findings. They corroborate some of what I myself have found. (Since I practice a version of Shou Shu, I know more about the art itself than you do -- you cannot deny this.) One request: please be more honest and transparent about your affiliations. Even I, as one not connected to any of the three parties (nor will be ever in the future), even I can see that Tracy and Parker do have something to lose to Moore's -- students, and all of the lucre they bring. You have brought to light again the internecine feud amongst kenpo schools -- and simultaneously shown whose side you take. One more thing! I've always wanted a documentable, provable, non-partisan (i.e., not from Tracy or Parker) kenpo lineage that predates both Mitose and Chow. If you would direct your research there, I would be most humbly in your debt.
Truth! PS Speaking for myself and not as a representative of our studio, thank you, Mr. Waters, for your research. I might quibble a tad over your conclusions, but I certainly won't deny your findings. They corroborate some of what I myself have found. (Since I practice a version of Shou Shu, I know more about the art itself than you do -- you cannot deny this.) One request: please be more honest and transparent about your affiliations. Even I, as one not connected to any of the three parties (nor will be ever in the future), even I can see that Tracy and Parker do have something to lose to Moore's -- students, and all of the lucre they bring. You have brought to light again the internecine feud amongst kenpo schools -- and simultaneously shown whose side you take. One more thing! I've always wanted a documentable, provable, non-partisan (i.e., not from Tracy or Parker) kenpo lineage that predates both Mitose and Chow. If you would direct your research there, I would be most humbly in your debt.[/QUOTE] I guess you knew Al Moore Trained under all the Kenpo men listed, and the techniques in Shou shu matched Bok fu. And Al and Ralph were Richard Lee black belts, now the question is, did you tell your students?? This would say a lot about the man in the mirror! Only dog I had in this fight was ( Family Pup's ) not any system. I knew of no fued, Kenpo. Karate, Kung Fu etc was all the same to me. As far as what Al Tracy, Steve Labounty, Richard Lee, Ted Sumner had said personally to myself and in print, all had the same story about Mr Moore. Standing alone none of these stories would amout to much, but together. There was talk about Al Moore training with a man named Grandmaster Novack for a short period, But not comfirmed. Thanks for the reply L.W.
*sigh* Well, I resisted posting to this very long thread because it really just oscillates back and forth over the same material over and over...but when a couple people come on here and directly badmouth my instructor (Mr. Sutherby) I feel I must respond. From Law Hon Gung From your comments and birthdate you can only be Mr. Schaffer of Far East Fighting Arts. I find it funny that you, a teacher of martial arts, are showing this kind of disrespect to a fellow martial arts instructor...especially one that got his original black belt from the same system as you (only 10-15 years earlier). I wonder...would you be willing to show your most advanced materials to a complete stranger that just showed up at your doorstep (I'm assuming you've acquired some advanced materials in the last 10+ years, although I certainly didn't see any in the video footage of you learning at one of Mr. Sutherby's Cane Fighting seminars from 1994).... which brings me to the really irritating lie in your quote about Cynthia filming you at a workout...LOL. The only filming she did of you was of you taking lessons at Mr. Sutherby's seminar. And why on earth would Mr. Sutherby have had any interest in stealing your material when it was just stuff he'd learned 15 years before...and had already modified based on his continued research over that time? Oh yeah...he is overweight and grey haired (closer to white now), he's also diabetic and has bad knees...and yet, he can still manage to move faster than anybody I've encountered previously. (well, he seems to move that fast because he's very efficient in his movement...obviously the pure muscle speed of a 67 year old man is going to be limited). There are very few martial artists that I would call his equal in combat arts. From KageAkuma Nor would you be invited...Maybe Mr. Schaffer has no qualms about teaching people with bad attitudes, but Mr. Sutherby does. From Lee Waters Wanfaex is not Mr. Sutherby if that's what you are thinking...He's the highest ranked student of Mr. Sutherby though and is working on his 7th black under him. His vehemence in his post is brought about by the loyalty and friendship that we all have towards Mr. Sutherby...only he's been with him for 15 years, I believe, so he gets especially irritated at disrespect towards his shifu. As far as whether we as students have been told all this...Yes. We are all quite aware of where Mr. Sutherby acquired most of his training and he's always been quite upfront about what he "knows" about Moore's Shou Shu and what "the stories" say about it. None of it really matters though because apart from the basics (early belts are pretty much kenpo with a little different body movement) and the template of animal styled black belt specialties...very little of Moore's is taught by Mr. Sutherby as he's gone on to learn much more in the 30 years since he was there (and knew quite a lot even before then). As far as the rest of the thread is concerned... Nope...I'd have to say Shou Shu is not a traditional Chinese kungfu system. It is more than a little Kenpo with a different emphasis in the body movement used (which is actually fairly "soft/internal" in nature). I think much is told about it which is untrue, but not really much more than any other martial art...it's just that the stories are still new enough to doubt a little easier. I also think that as with most arts...the instructor is what makes the art. Shou shu taught by a good instructor and learned by a good pupil can create excellent martial artists. The opposite is just as true. Well, I've said my piece so I'll call this for now. -Ian Melroy 2nd degree black - Silver Tiger Kungfu
Clarification It's true. I am not Mr. Sutherby. Actually, it never occurred to me that others would think he was "Wanfaex." Allow me to speak my mind -- once again, not as a representative of our studio.... Mr. Sutherby told us the stories supplied by the Moores but always said, bluntly, that he was only reporting what he was told. He could not (and wouldn't even try to) verify most of the claims made. (Think about it -- all of the events involved would have happened years before Mr. Sutherby even began studying with the Moores. All in the 40s, 50s, and 60s.) PLEASE! (Sorry for the loud voice....) Though we do practice a version of Shou Shu, please do not directly associate us with Schaeffer or Weaver. Our studio is not connected to them in any way whatsoever beyond a shared instructor (Al Moore Sr.). Even that is a tenuous link because Schaeffer claims to have learned a more complete version of the art (his claim is closely related to the orginal story from Moore) and Weaver learned his material in the 1980s and 1990s when Moore's Shou Shu was undergoing changes in organization and management. We have never had any direct contact with Weaver. We do not subscribe to his philosophy, beliefs, practices, or sense of history. I'm not going to criticize what he believes, but I just want everyone to clearly dissociate us from him. The same holds true for Schaeffer. We had some contact with him in the 1990s, but we remained distant. He attended some of our seminars and group sessions. We held a very few practice sessions with participants from both schools. We lent him a hand when he opened his school. And that's about it. I was there for much of the contact and I am willing to testify that we never "steeled" anything from him. (From what we saw, his lower belt material was similar to ours but with slightly different body movement and possibly some omissions.) He requested that we assist in welcoming his contact from China (the apparent source of his new material), but we respectfully declined. We have had the utmost minimal contact with him ever since. We wish them the best in their chosen endeavors, but please, please, please, people: When you think of Weaver and Schaeffer, do not think of Sutherby or Silver Tiger. No direct connection. (Not even any stolen techniques.) From what we can tell, things have changed radically at Moore's Shou Shu since Sutherby left in the late 1970s. But it's hard to say. For Al Moore Sr. the martial artist, we have the utmost respect. Beyond that, we have no comment. As to the origin of Shou Shu, I personally can definitively state that the version we have is kenpo plus...something, likely some form of Chinese traditional martial art. I have next to me two books published in 1975 and 1983 by Ohara Publications. They are entitled Hsing-i Kung Fu by Tim Tackett (volumes 1 and 2). If I were to hazard a guess, based on the content of these books, I'd say that Shou Shu looks a lot like Kenpo mixed with Tackett's version of Hsing-i. Plus some other stuff. Tackett himself (reading from his byline) was (is?) "a senior Jeet Kune Do and Filipino Escrima student of Danny Inosanto." I can't verify any theories because nobody is talking and the man who could resolve all issues surrounding this matter has passed on. Even if we determine who Al Moore Sr. studied with officially, what other arts did he come into contact with? How long did he study these? There were lots of martial artists in California in the late 1960s, many of them jockeying to make a (monetary) killing in the martial arts biz. (Come to think of it, that's still happening. Consider the Gracies.) Can't say how reliable Wikipedia is on this point, but the info for Tim Tackett says: "Tackett began training in the martial arts when he was stationed in Taiwan in 1962 .... During his 3 years in Taiwan he learned two types of Hsing-i, Tai Chi, Northern and Southern Shaolin, White Crane, and Monkey style kung fu." From the same site: "Tackett saw Bruce Lee demonstrate Jeet Kune Do in 1967 at Ed Parker's tournament in Long Beach, California." I mention this not as proof, but just to give an idea of the pool that Al Moore Sr. could possibly have pulled from. For that matter, he probably also made use of the concepts behind Jeet Kune Do. And what was the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do? Essentially, learn everything you can, find what works best for you, then meld those components into an effective, personal art. (Refer to Bruce Lee's writings or to page 21 of "Jeet Kune Do Basics" by Cheng, David. Possibly also various web sites.) So Moore created a hybrid martial art. (Even "shou shu believers" cannot argue with this, since Moore at least integrated kenpo into his unverified "Mandarin" art.) Lets consider this. Sounds like the origins of Krav Maga and the myriad of MMA, wouldn't you say? You'll argue over credentials and battle-testing, but the process remains the same. We're all in this together, folks. Not even the traditional Chinese martial arts are exempt from such hybridization. One obvious example: Refer to "Praying Mantis Kung Fu" by Un, H.B., pages 8-9 and "Praying Mantis Kung-Fu: Spear Hand" by Eng, Paul, page 17 (you may be able to find the same information on the web). Praying Mantis (no documentation on which version) is a combination of multiple martial arts (17-18) mixed with material that Wong Long himself created from observing an insect. (Ridiculous as the mongoose sounds, is the mantis truly superior as a basis for a newly developed martial art?) You may be the elder brother, predating us youngsters by hundreds or possibly thousands of years (more hard-to-verify claims, by the way, when you count in the thousands), but we're still all in this together, folks. Naturally, anything I say opens me for more abuse from all of the "internet martial artists" out there (what could possibly be worse than armchair warriors and backseat drivers, you ask...just read the forums on this site -- you'll see what I mean). Contritely, I apologize for sounding so strident in my previous post (you have now heard my normal tone, expunged of nearly all revulsion and disgust), but the insult posted by Low Hung Gong was not only uncalled for, it was also explicitly or tacitly acceptable to all the participants. Which is why I spread my ire further than just Mr. Gong (likely Mr. Schaeffer). Frankly, this site is so rife with insults, threats, juvenile behavior, drivel, agendas, huffing and puffing, baseless claims, dismissive attitudes, and worse...it is all so far and away from the ideal -- it's depressing. It's no wonder that many people think of martial artists as illiterate neanderthals who deserve whatever befalls them. After reading this site, I can't blame anyone who feels that martial artists are immature, drunken, brutish louts with anger problems and incurable sport-related head injuries. I want to tell them they're wrong about you all, but you're not helping.... After reading the posts on this site, even I, one who should know better, believed the cliche. As my colleague Ian said: Sigh.... Writing as Wanfaex, Baron Schuyler 6th degree black belt Silver Tiger/Blue Dragon Kung Fu PS Go ahead...mentally correct that to kenpo, or hybrid, or American mongrel art...whatever makes you happy. Sigh....
Hats Off. I Knew you were not Mr Sutherby, birthday 1971. Hats off to both gentleman. Great posts. L.W.
I would like to apologize to Wanfaex/Shaed about my initial post about your school/Iron Phoenix style. It was obviously uncalled for and after reading both of your posts I feel as if I've been narrow minded. I'd like to rectify that. Maybe come to your school to apologize face to face.
Apology accepted. I've looked at quite a few of your past posts here on MAP and it appears that you are actually a pretty helpful and respectful individual so I may have been overly critical of you in my post. I invite you to send me an email and we can perhaps arrange for you to see a class or we can just get together and compare notes on technique, etc... Again, I appreciate your apology. It shows an integrity that needs to be seen more often in the martial arts community. -i
Kids It's all about the kids. Kids were insulted and degraded, because they had enough courage to question the BS lines that the Shou Shu Clones put out. And it's the creator of false facts (LIE) of a story that make it dirty, I.E. The Moore Family. Just read the forums with the different students of the shou Shu that take to heart the lies these so called men, have fed them. L.W.
Most CMA schools don't spar fullcontact. I've been to enough, talked to people from enough and read websites of enough to know that. In fact a significant number to not spar in any way at all.
