Safer to lift before or after kickboxing?

Discussion in 'Injuries and Prevention' started by Knee Rider, Jun 10, 2018.

  1. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Hi,

    Sorry if this has been asked already.

    I'm looking to find out what the potential risks are - if any - of lifting after kickboxing. Is it safe or is it asking for injury?
     
    axelb likes this.
  2. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Depends on what lifting you are doing. Doing heavy multi joint lifting whilst tired or your muscles fatigued might not be the best idea.

    And certainly won't lead to good gains
     
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  3. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Won't be heavy.

    It'll be high volume low intensity lifting.
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If you lift before, you'll be tired for the skill training, so less skill learnt, if you lift afterwards you'll be tired already, so less gainz.....

    I'd say lift afterwards, unless you have a beach holiday inside a month......
     
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  5. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    As long as there isn't some form of hidden danger in doing so then I reckon I will lift afterwards.

    It's a secondary focus and I don't want to be tired for skill work, so seems like a plan.
     
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  6. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    I used to lift before (1-3 hours break after lift) and it did not go well, but that was relatively heavy based on my max lifts.

    Going lighter with high reps you will still be fatigued, but not as much as with heavy.

    the type of lift can be varied depending what you focus for the clasa

    e.g. If you are doing bench press, then your kickboxing can be focused on leg or clinch work to balance it out.

    Leg based lifting, then boxing work more in kickboxing.

    If you plan to lift after, you might be able to gauge what area to focus the lifting on based on areas your class didn't cover as much.

    I think largely it depends what your primary goal is at the time, as either way, one will take from the other.

    Whichever you deem as the prime goal for that period, do first, so your body has enough energy to push and benefits most from that.

    Are you planning on going straight into one session from another? Or do you have leeway for a rest?
     
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  7. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    The only cumulative danger you need to watch for is if you're working the same areas that have been focused on most in class.
    From my experience I used to do bench and weighted dips before boxing, which involved a lot of pad and heavy bag work which over time I developed pain in my shoulder and elbow :rolleyes: seems stupid writing this in hindsight.

    Also squat workout before kungfu which was often stance and kicking sheilds, unsurprisingly also ended with pain and cramp in my knee/quad (also feel a bit like captain obvious writing that one now)
     
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  8. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

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  9. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Skill work before strength work, always.
     
  10. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    Usually when I do weight training I try and organise it so I do it during bag work. It helps make the session more interesting when I am training solo. If the gym is busy or I don't have the space then I'll do it after.

    If I plan to work kicks on the bag, I work legs on weights too. Or if I'm working on boxing then I'll work upper body. I generally do this twice a week, so I always have a session on legs and a session on upper body. I don't do heavy lifting, and I always finish off with working abs with a medicine ball.
     
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  11. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    I agree with Van Zandt about doing skills first. I also like Unreal Combat’s advice about one legs day and one upper body day per week.

    Whatever you decide, you might want to consider your training microcycle - if you’re not already - so that you’ve enough recovery. E.g. a monthly cycle of 3 weeks hard training and 1 week’s light training.

    A key risk is cumulative micro-trauma of the muscle over time, hence the need for R&R. But I’m guessing you know all this stuff already.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
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  12. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Cheers for all the advice lads.

    I'll try a 3 week micro cycle, training after my classes and see if it's sustainable.

    I'll start tomorrow.
     
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  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    You should be fine, as long as you're sensible. Most of the time though, I would be lifting before I do a kickboxing class, as at least with muscle fatigue I won't have a metal weight landing on me.

    However, one of my team mates would do a 90min class, then do a heavy squat/leg press session.
     
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  14. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I have done both which is why I asked what the objective is and what lifts etc if its large multi joint exercises or ol lifting then they should be treated as the technical work and done first for safety if its bodybuilding stuff it really doesn't matter

    Personally I'd do the hardest/ most important to me part of the session first and secondary important stuff well second
     
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  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I treat my padwork as cardio and as a stretch. I have zero science knowledge to back up a "better before/after" argument, apart from that I feel a bit better doing that way. I guess. Still get doms anyway...
     
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  16. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    The sequence of efforts (either in a single workout or a micro/macrocycle) should always be: technique, speed, speed-endurance, strength, strength-endurance, endurance, and rest/active rest. Corrupting this order interferes with how the human organism responds to the various training stresses (different body systems adapt at different rates) and potential consequences include developing poor technique, chronic fatigue and injury.
     
  17. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Yep but what if the technique portion of the session last an hour or longer and includes endurance and conditioning which is what most MA classes involve?

    I agree completely with you but this is almost two complete sessions back to back and the question is which should g first and shouldn't that come down to importance to the individual and what they value learning and the respective difficulty of each class?
     
  18. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    That's a good question and one which shines a spotlight on the fact that many martial arts instructors and combat sports coaches don't know how to properly structure training sessions. A few do and they are very good at it, but they are the exception in my experience. I've written about qualifications and insurance in other threads on MAP, but it's why elite martial arts teams tend to have separate technical/tactical coaches and S&C coaches.

    To address your specific question, I don't know many people outside the elite levels of sport who can sustain good quality technique for longer than an hour. In my experience, folks start fading around the 45-minute mark, at which point bad motor patterns start to get ingrained and these have to be unlearned in future sessions.

    A typical martial arts class is 60-90 minutes. The first 20-25 minutes should be allocated to warm-up and activation, and the final 15-20 minutes should be reserved for cool-down and stretching. That leaves 25-45 minutes for technical work, which stays within limits for avoiding bad habits due to fatigue.

    Conditioning should be done in separate sessions to technical work. Ideally on separate days, but if a person's circumstances dictate he or she must do back-to-back sessions in the same day, then the sequence should follow the order I wrote in my previous post. The type, intensity and duration of exercises should change according to the individual but the order they do them in should remain the same regardless of whether they're a new white belt or a world champion black belt.
     
  19. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    What do you think about simply keeping them very far apart? I used to do S&C at 04:00 and wouldn't be training until around 19:00 same day. I always found that after the 13-14 hour gap I'd be perfectly fresh for training.
     
  20. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Not van zandt but morning and evening sessions are preferable to training everyday without a rest.

    Just be sure to follow something like charlie Francis high low day approach to avoid too much fatigue
     

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