Assalaamu'alaikum to all, Looking at Russian Systema on the web, I like most of what I see. It looks just like what we would call in Indonesian 'silat buah' the fruit of silat, pure applications. Articles on the web vaguely trace this silat back to the Orthodox Church and definitely trace it back to one of Stalin's bodyguards. I was wondering whether there is any silat influence in the art of Stalin's bodyguards as history notes that several Indonesian communist leaders spent much time with Stalin before and durring WWII. In 1926 the Indonesian Communist Party tried to launch a revolution to overthrow the Dutch but did not succeed. Several leaders made their way to Moscow and at least one was a pendekar : Muso, who began his political career in an Islamic party (Sarekat Islam) but split to form the Partai Komunis Indonesia. I have read in several places that he was a pendekar and a senior who taught some silat to Soekarno who later went on to become our first President. Muso spent WWII in Moscow with Stalin and only returned to Indonesia in 1948 where he met Soekarno in Yogyakarta and talked politics and silat meaning he most likely did latihan all the time in Russia. Doing latihan all the time would naturally create involvement of other people which would very likely become a class. I don't know why I am thinking this maybe it is because Systema (on the web) looks just like what one would imagine silat could look like if it were put through a 'materialist-dialectic' washing machine. Anyone know more about this? Warm salaam to all, KC.
I previously trained in CIA for many years. IME Systema works from a very different base an has different training methods and principles. I've not found anything watered down about it, quite the reverse, particularly when compared to CIA again. cheers Rob
I'm very suspicious of the "It came from Indonesia" theory. The Russians have a strong combatives tradition including things like Sambo and indigenous wrestling styles. And the Big Red Sports Science Machine turned out an awful lot of cutting edge research into everything from motivational psychology to optimizing human performance. I'm sure that there were influences from all over, but let's face it. There are only so many good ways the human body can move and fight. Every culture figures them out.
What would a Pendekar do living with Stalin 22 years? Peace to all, I am not aware that there is an 'it came from Indonesia' theory regarding Systema. Is there really one Tellner or is it just a suggestion in this thread? I suspect that Systema is a product of Red-Martial-Workshops where many traditions and experiences were shared amongst the comrades and in no way could I imagine Stalin's bodyguard submitting to a traditional school of silat with all it's esoteric and religious and artistic notions. My posting about Muso was written because I 'saw' silat in the systema videos I watched through links from postings by a systema teacher on this web. If silat is in fact present in the dialogue of the creation of Systema then maybe it was through Muso who was a Pendekar, probably in a Setia Hati silat (this is a guess, Muso begun his career in an Islamic organization). I wouldn't use the term 'watered-down' though Yogi as it sounds a bit demeaning. These guys are training in a good system and I would not like to have them think that I did not respect them. But Muso was in Moscow within the inner circle of Stalin between late 1926 and mid 1948. Muso was a known pendekar and silat was one of the main topics of discussion when he and Soekarno met again so he must have been practising in Russia. It is impossible that Muso did not share his silat with anyone while living for over 20 years in the Makkah of his chosen ideology. He was not just any snotty cadre as he was the leader of the largest communist party outside a communist state and veteran of a (failed) revolution. What happened to Muso's silat during the 22 years in Stalin's inner circle? My guess is that Muso was an active member of the martial workshops conducted amongst Stalin's bodyguards which gave birth to what we now see as Systema. I imagine that there were all the martial artists that they could gather together participating in those workshops and a silat pendekar seems to have been one. As for every culture figuring out how to best use their body Tellner, that is not really true. Some cultures have a very sophisticated body-culture while others don't. The culture of the modern world chooses to defaecetate sitting down (reading a book or paper) which is the worst possible position to empty clean your bowels. Back to the thread: is there any Russian player out there who could do some research in to the 22 years Muso spent in Moscow? Warm salaams to all, KC.
Kiai, That is funny you mention this because I have been saying that since 1999! I was training with Master Guy Savelli in 1999, one of his students was an ex-Spetsnaz and Systema instructor. Master Savelli said watch this video and tell me what you think. Well I watched it and said damn that's pretty good Silat & Kuntao and got up and actually performed several of the moves as I knew them from Silat. After it was over he said that it was Systema from Russia and I said where did they learn Silat & Kuntao? I eventually contacted Vladimir and told him I saw lots of Silat in Systema and wanted to know more about it. I talked with him in depth about Systema at which time he invited me free of charge to come to Canada to a seminar with Mikhail to discuss it since he was the leading authority on the art & history. I didn't get a chance to visit Mikhail but Vladimir never denied Silat being part of Systema nor did he act like he didn't know what silat was. All he would say was, talk with Mehkel. I eventually studied a little Systema and found it to be quite complementary to my Silat & Kuntao training. Sincerely, Teacher: Eddie Ivester
People who study silat see silat in systema. People who study aikido see aikido in the system. People who study bujinkan taijutsu see bujinkan taijutsu in the system. Systema is either a collection of these styles and the many others that see a link to it or it is simply systema. This makes more sense to me than trying to catorgorise where it come from. Paul Genge Russian Martial Arts Northwest
I was not trying to be degrading towards systema it is an actually good system non pun intended. I like some of the stuff Vladimer does And I like that it doesn't take long to learn. I personally don't agree with some of their knife work and weaponry work that I have seen on their videos particularly the disarming. I think honestly some of that stuff might get a man killed. Maybe I am wrong but I still believe that they have a bit of Silat somewhere in their mix......... Good or bad watered down or full ........ as my guru says "A little Silat goes a long way!" Peace Silatyogi
Paul, Remember Systema is not a national Russian martial art but a military fighting art of the elite Spetsnaz from the Russian military! The common Russian citizen didn't even know Systema existed. So with that underline your stating that you think the Russians invented Systema purely from their native fighting arts like Sambo and had no influence from anywhere else? It is common knowledge that the Russians bought, begged, borrowed and stole anything they thought would help their current interest be it submarines, nuclear bombs, athletic performance enhancers and etc. They wanted to be the best or have the best at whatever it was and they had the means to get whatever it took to be the best! The Russians invented and enhanced a lot of things the rest of the world now uses or has gained knowledge from. So why would we think that they didn't do the same thing for their soldiers fighting ability. No one is saying Systema isn't Russian just that it is heavily influenced by Silat that's all. There maybe similarities to other arts but with Silat it's not similar, it is Silat. To many people who study Silat can see this including Indonesians. Sincerely, Teacher: Eddie Ivester
The point I am trying to make there are students of literally hundreds of different arts that see their style in the system. They cannot all be right. No matter what the origin of any martial arts certain truths have to be part of it for it to survive in combat. For this reason they will often have similarities in appearence at some level. Systema is simply that systema. It's origins are documented by Michael Ryabko who is the worlds leading authority on the subject, but like all styles the history is a little vague for the scholastic types. The way systema has developed will have been flavoured by people the practicioners have been in combat against and come into contact with. This is no different from the development of any style. Trying to label systema as russian aikido or silat ect is pointless. Paul Genge
I'd be interested in where you can point maybe a video clip or something that clearly shows an identical silat / systema technique. I'm doubly intrigued that the training methods seem so different and yet one stems from the other. What is your understanding of the similarities between systema and silat training methodologies? It's interesting, I had a similar conversation a while back with someone who opined the system was built largely on chang chuan, and another who claimed it was bagua.
First off I've only studied systema for about a year and experienced 3 different schools interpretations. I initially thought it contained a lot of bagua, and the timing would have been correct if they'd sent people to China. After some study, trading bagua apps they'd never seen, lack of extreme circular methods, and lack of creating 'changing', I thought maybe it was based more on taiji but I think the way the qinna is used in taiji is fundamentally different than systema and after seeing some good Chen guys well...; After attending a seminar with William Dethours I was suprised at how similar it was, which I was thankful for since it allowed me to not be a complete fish out of water. Bill Dethours broke silat down and then showed the similar apps done in a bagua manner and then in a taiji manner which really helped to show the nature of silat. He talked a lot about knifework and expressed some dissapointment in techniques he'd seen in other styles, i.e. stuff that will get you killed. Great theory. I say keep digging. -----------------
Assalamu'alaikum to all, If you look at the clips on Paul Genge's school page I would say that all the defenses against this and that are silat. If someone can prove that the Indonesian Communist and Pendekar, Muso, was not teaching silat in his time of over 2 decades in Moscow which also endured WWII, then I can believe that silat was not a main dialogue-partner in the formulation of Systema during Stalin's reign. The training methods of systema are very different from traditional silat but from what I have read they are still within the principles of silat movement. That is why I stated in my first post of this thread that Systema looks like silat put through an materialist-dialectic washing machine. I imagine that in the formulation of Systema there would be alot of singing Internationale and participants would be in a strong spirit of comradeship, not holding on to ethnic or national identities and never mentioning God but rather idelaizing 'the people' and 'the revolution'. As the silat was put through a materialist and dialectical process it cannot be called silat anymore espescially when all traditional silat systems employ God in their thinking and most silats have 'silat seni' or 'bunga' or 'kembangan' all (probably) degenerate art in Stalinist eyes. I agree with Paul Genge that there is no point in labeling Sytema as Russian Silat except if you were explaining Systema to an Indonesian or Malaysian because the term Russian Silat would immediately conjure images consistent with the clips mentioned above. Although Russian Silat does not exist if it did it would look like Systema in the same way that Chinese Silat is an Indonesian term for Kung Fu. For me personally it just gives a clue to the answer of the question: what was Muso doing in the 2 decades plus he was in Stalin's inner circle? In fact one could even be more precise and guess that Muso practised a Jawanese silat rather than a Sumatran silat for in the ground fighting vids of Systema there appears to be less silat vocabulary than brainstorming and body-listening-to. Warm salaams to all and to those who are fasting, have a barokah Ramadhan. KC.
Paul, No one is calling it Russian Silat but you! Why are you so defensive of the fact that Systema may of been heavily influenced by Silat? IT is not a national fighting art but a military fighting/martial system, period! I know the Silat I studied/study was influenced by Chinese Kuntao & Japanese arts and further back in history by Indian & Persian arts! So what it's still INDONESIAN SILAT, just like Systema is Russian. Well I'm done with this and if you want to believe the Russian Government invented Systema from Sambo and other native Russian fighting styles then you go right a head and believe that. Sincerely, Teacher: Eddie Ivester
I don’t get it. From my understanding Systema was made up from several, or even many Russian and ex-Soviet republics martial arts, these span from Europe to the Far east. So unless someone studied each of these Russian and ex-Soviet systems, thus having knowledge to see that there are aspects in Systema which are obviously not derived from these foundation arts, then I don’t see how one can make assumptions about the origins of an art. In other words you cannot just assume something is a root of something else, without studying what is supposed to be the true root, if that make sense. Also, in my opinion Systema, some branches of Silat, Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Xing Yi, Aikido all share very similar principles of movement and in some cases these arts are related, but in some cases they are not. Basically what I'm trying to say is, we can assume all we want, but it does not mean anything until we study everything in depth.
"Paul, No one is calling it Russian Silat but you! " Actually it's the name of the thread. "Why are you so defensive of the fact that Systema may of been heavily influenced by Silat? " Because it isn't taught like silat, doesn't look like silat and, as far as I can see, has as much or as little in common with silat as any other art. " imagine that in the formulation of Systema there would be alot of singing Internationale and participants would be in a strong spirit of comradeship, not holding on to ethnic or national identities and never mentioning God but rather idelaizing 'the people' and 'the revolution'. " I'd respectfully suggest a little more research into pre-revolutionary Russian martial arts. "if you want to believe the Russian Government invented Systema from Sambo and other native Russian fighting styles then you go right a head and believe that." Ditto
Ok Look. I have seen and own ALL OF THE RUSSIAN SYSTEMA TAPES. I have also taught Silat to guys that did Systema. What you guys are training is VERY similar if not the same idea of Javanese Silat and Kuntao. Ofcourse with out all the cultural aspects. One of the biggest moves used almost 90% of the time by everyone I have seen do Systema is what we call Peuter Kapala. Now grant it all Fluid martial arts have this move. The striking and hitting is also very related to how hits are produced in Kuntao & Cimande and other Javanese Silats. I will not mention names out of respect but I know of at least 2 well known Gurus and Pendekars of Silat that have been approached by Vladymer to learn Silat. SILAT is in fact a major influence to systema. Most of their core moves come out of the idea of Dissolving your center which is very well known in all silat systems that practicing yielding and in Tai chi & Bagua. Systema uses a form of Gelek in most of what they do. The only problem I see with the art is that most of the guys with the exception of Vladymer have almost Zero structural integrity. They yield and flop with out any actual rooting or proper body alignment. That is why some of this stuff will work on most people who don't know but will not on a really skilled silat, kuntao, tai chi, Xing Yi or Bagua player. I am not trying to say Silat is better it's all up the practitioner of any gievn system. I am just saying that from my experience with people who trained Systema only, they usually ended up stumped when they couldn't move a guy who is well aligned . And that its very easy to take their balance because they do not distibute their weight properly. You practice Kembangan you basically can move as fluid as any Tai chi or Systema player. I like what Uncle Bill Says: "1 Fortify the center 2 Move the Center 3 Dissolve the Center" Your art what ever you practice should have those 3 principles. Most Silat systems use all 3. Most systems of Kuntao use all 3. That is why I said earlier Systema is watered down. Systema seems more to rely on #3 because they don't really fortify their center of gravity and because of that they don't really move it. Most of the guys I have seen hold their center of gravity in their chest like the Russian Ballerinas. PLease take no offense to this but its true. Look at a martial artist that has a real Dan Tien development as opposed to a guy that holds his center of gravity in his chest. The one with the lower Dantien highly developed will have way more power and better movement. Also one thing that I have noticed is that the motions are really wide and exaggerated that is a good way to learn at first. But the idea is to tighten your moves up and condence it so its unnoticable and subtle. this is something you see in Silat that you do not see so much in Systema. peace Silat Yogi
Sorry, you may have all of the video tapes, but all that your comments reveal to me, questionable claims about Vladymeyer (sic) aside is that you have very little knowledge of the underlying principles of Systema and how they differ considerably from arts that use root, dan tien movement, etc. "That is why some of this stuff will work on most people who don't know but will not on a really skilled silat, kuntao, tai chi, Xing Yi or Bagua player." Goes directly against my experience in both tai chi and systema. "The one with the lower Dantien highly developed will have way more power and better movement. " Ditto "But the idea is to tighten your moves up and condence it so its unnoticable and subtle. this is something you see in Silat that you do not see so much in Systema." Perhaps not with limited exposure. If you want to classify systema as a silat off-shoot, that's your prerogative. cheers Rob
Hmm I see it every week When my instructor increases the intensity of his work then I'm very lucky if I can spot what happened there’s are various subtle movements that are hard to see at an increased rate because as you have said the work tightens and condenses.
