Reeling silk or pulling silk

I've been wondering something along those lines too. Rather than silk reeling being dropped by the other main styles, was it actually added to the Chen style at some point?

 

I think it's more the case of it always being around conceptually, just been differently emphasized by different people in different practice frames. It's a much simpler and less contentious explanation than having been added or taken out by anyone. there's no lack of the concept in tai chi styles or presence it just appears more or less emphasized and or deliberate.

It's important to remember a certain amount of silk reeling is a natural by product of the body method used to move around in a tai chi form.

One thing the Wu Hao style, and the Wu (Chien Chuan) styles have in common is they are both considered small frame. Yang Ban Hou was sent to study with Wu Yu-hsiang. Who had previously ended up going back to Chen village and studying with a small frame teacher from the Chen clan. Is it a coincidence then that Yang Ban Hou later became known for his "small frame" and that the Wu (Chien Chuan) style was also influenced by his TCC and also came to be known as a "small frame" style.

Large frame TCC is expanded and smooth, small frame is compact; neither is really conducive to focus on overt spiralling, the spiralling is from a combination of natural rotating movements rather than deliberate (coiling) ones.

 

I think you have dichotomized research and practice, while research here is to investigate the practical applications of silk pulling or silk reeling in Taijiquan.

 

Some things cannot be properly understood without actually doing them.

I grew up listening to my dad shouting at the footballers on TV, telling them where they were going wrong. It was only when I got a bit older that I realised that my dad's knowledge of football was limited to watching TV. He'd never played it in his life, and hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about.

 

Indeed, and to be clear I am only talking about the overt expression of it seen in some of the videos on this thread being the 'thing' that may have been added or lost.

I would argue that so-called silk reeling (or at least the feeling of it) is one of the defining characteristics of Taijiquan today, embodied in the mechanics of movement when practicing the style. It makes the difference between what my teacher calls "dead" movements and "live" movements.

Regarding the different frames of Taijiquan, I actually feel that the Grasping Sparrow's Tail sequence in Wu style expresses "silk reeling" more overtly than the same sequence in Yang style.

 

No doubt the Chen style has been developing parallel to the other styles. How exactly it has developed is largely unknown to me and I have no idea whether this could be answered satisfactorily. We know that Yang Luchan changed what he learned in Chen Village; how much we don't know. We also know that Yang Luchan did not learn the entirety of Chen Village Boxing, in fact some would claim he was taught very different content to that of the Chens themselves.

We know Wu Yuxiang also studied in Chen Village for a period of time and Wu/Hao style (for whatever reasons) looks no more like contemporary Chen style than any of the others.

So what did Chen style look like in the early to mid 19th Century? I wish I had the answer, but whatever it is, I'd bet today's Chen stylists wouldn't like it

 

A bit of history regarding the development of Chen style here, more specifically the division of Chen into "small frame" and "large frame".

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/xiaojia.html

If you notice in the article it lists disciples for this "small frame", where you will see the name of Chen Qingpin" who was the teacher Wu Yu-hsiang is said to have had in and around Chen village.

I have heard a few people comment on how the Wu Hao style and small frame Chen match up. Things get ever more complicated because as it turns out the style(Wu-Hao) also underwent changes as it passed through various hands.. There is Wu Yu hsiang frames that didn't go through Hao lines that look markedly different for example.

The overall look and choreography is comparable between Chen small frame and the Wu Yu Hsiang frames but rather than post different sets, I'll leave it up to people to look around for themselves, compare and contrast what's out there and see what they think.

Form changes and diversification under the circumstances/ context are very natural and normal, the vast array of difference out there can seem disconcerting and can raise questions of originality, authenticity and the like. However I would say that for me the diversity of practice found amongst all the various styles and lines of taiji is all well and good and as it should be really..

 

Thank you for your curiosity but why?

Actually I am developing some simple rotational stretching techniques for people wanting to improve their fighting power and Shen Jiazhen's silk reeling exercise is a good reference. I did some post-graduate research in pure eccentric movement in Chinese Martial Arts. I do not think anyone can validate any movement without knowing how to do it, and that sort of come to the reliability question in research as well. I post this thread hoping that practitioners might have something to share regarding the practical application of various rotation and circumduction of joints in silk reeling exercise.

Do you practice silk reeling or silk pulling technique in Taijiquan?

 

I did wrote something in the introduction, so just look up Hello from Fu Zhensong lineage with quotes.

The idea of silk pulling is to make various circles continuously, actually Shen Jiazhen's diagram included small, medium and large circles. The term chan 缠 is used in other martial arts as well. Shen Jiazhen learn from Yang Jianhou, Yang Chengfu and Chan Fake.

The classical concept of mobilise tension or strength like pulling silk has been around for a long time before any division of chan yang sun wu, etc.

 

Spot on Mister Clouds YCF modified his families form and took out a lot of the martial ideas to simplify it. The silk reeling element was just one of the things that was hidden from public classes, which is why it is not in Chings form either.

 

Here is an example of reeling which is called the folding single pushing hand (zhe die tui shou) developed in 1994 by the Martial Arts Association of China:

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The other reelings are the vertical circle and horozonal circle, all can be done in single hand or both hands with or without stepping, etc.

 

Yes it's embedded in the movements. It's not the easiest to explain in writing but I'll give it a shot. The concept probably sounds more exotic than the thing itself, which is fairly common in CMA.

It's basically a combination of rotational movements. We can include the legs and the waist/ torso rotations as they combine with the arm rotations.
But you can understand the basic concept with 2 types of rotation that are combined in the arms motions. See clip posted by Runcai.

Your arm can rotate around your shoulder joint in a circular motion. You do this when you draw a circle in the air with your hand. The other way your arm rotates is around its own axis (couldn't think of a better way to word this), but doesn't move position in space. So if you hold out your arm and leave it palm up, you can now rotate your palm about 270 degrees.

Cloud hands is a good example of where you will be using "chansi". Here the rotations of your torso will combine with the 2 rotations in the arms described above.

These combined rotations in the legs / torso / arms is said to add a spiral quality to the force generated along this kinetic chain.

 

Runcai,

Don't know if you have seen this informative post, http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21243
Couldn't help but be reminded of your thread.

 

- What's the usage of this in combat?
- What's the difference between if you have it, or if you don't have it?
- Will it help you to increase your punching power?
- How can you prove it?
- What drill do you use to train it.

In the Baji system, the following drill is used to train this (at 2.38).

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYikolf7udw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYikolf7udw[/ame]

 

Well, YouKnowWho raise the same questions in that thread. Maybe we should have a look at his questions:

- What's the usage of this in combat?
- What's the difference between if you have it, or if you don't have it?
- Will it help you to increase your punching power?
- How can you prove it?
- What drill do you use to train it.

The drill suggested in Shen's book is a good one, and is practical with reference to various Taijiquan techniques. In Hong Jun Sheng's book, he said Chen Fahe practiced it all the time. I think one need to look at individual techniques in order to discuss the other questions and maybe a palm strike instead of punching is a good place to start.