The argument is all about if it is hurting anyone. Your post reminded me of a stir a few years ago in Bristol about a Dita von Teese performance. This is the argument laid out by Sian Norris, Bristol Feminist Network, and Dr Helen Mott, Bristol Fawcett: http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/FIGHT-STRIP-AWAY-STEREOTYPES/story-11238111-detail/story.html I can't help but think that if public nudity was acceptable and normal, if the taboo was removed from the naked human form, many of these body image and sexual objectification issues would become null and void.
My god...there are some absolute muppets posting here. If anyone ever thinks we don't need feminists and feminism just has to read this thread for at least two prime examples of the problems women face. I mean come on women...a man has told you to get over being raped. Lighten up for god's sake. It's not like it's a real problem. I'm just...I dunno...some people are just stupid and horrible I guess?
The US and UK at least are still far too Victorian about sex and nudity. I tend to agree some good advances would be made if me moved on. As far as harm, its too difficuilt to quantify once you get into these sorts of things. My stance is about direct harm. The kind being suggested by a lot of these modern issues seems to be almost entirely theoretical and is subjective on personal.beliefs and values. The continued debate about porn is a good example. I think one of the things I don't like about these sort of harm questions is it decides people are very stupid. Usually I agree but not for stuff like this. For example take Hooters. I think its a dumb idea anyway but the argument would be that it causes harm by objectifying women and suggests they exist only to be sexually gratifying for men. To me what that says is "I don't care what your previous beliefa were and what they were based on, you see a hooters girl and now you think sexual assualt is ok." It ignores that humans do actually have some form of intelligence and can differentiate and recognise context. Its like the people saying if you ever use "fag" or laugh at a racist joke you must therefore be a homophobe or a racist. Once you get into these theoretical harm febates a lot of assumption has to be made and a lot of refusing to acknowledge human intellect has to be done.
Small correction: Zinowar didn't say get over BEING raped. He said get over the idea you can stop it. I imagine its similiar to the difference between saying to accept murder will always happen and telling a grieving widow to suck it up.
One thing that springs to my mind is the lad's mag phenomenon. It wasn't until I was around 18 or 19 that they started appearing. Now, I don't have any studies or evidence, but I have a strong suspicion that they brought society a step back in terms of gender equality. When I went to uni as a mature student (about 6-8 years older than most there), I was pretty horrified at how much more sexist the male students were compared to my peers, and my experience of university students my own age. Perhaps there were other factors at work, perhaps lad's mags were merely a symptom of some other social phenomenon. But when you have boys who, completely unconsciously, only listen or converse with women they wish to have sex with, surely that is the kind of "rape culture" symptom that objectifies women and makes cruelty toward them much more likely? All persecutions begin with objectification, as this allows us to bypass empathy.
It's not acceptable to me either. I'm just saying we will never get rid of it, unless we go down the path of big brotheresque scenes where everyone is being monitored or some other extreme measure where everyone loses. I can't accept war either. Doesn't mean I can't accept the reality of the fact that we will likely never get rid of it. Or that at least I won't live to see the day that we do. A lot of young muslims in this country are like that unfortunately. They approach women on the street and when they're rejected they yell, calling them cancer whores. Even though the only reason they approached that woman in the first place is because he thought she was a whore. They're a troubled people. :dunno: I used to be part of a group of friends at school where I was the only male. Well, there was a gay guy too, but I tend to think of them as women. Anyway, during lunch breaks they talked a lot about guy's abs and the hypothetical size of their penises and generally who they found to be hot or not. I didn't care much for their conversations, but I hung around them because the girls were hot. I wasn't interested in them, but it brightens my day to be around hot girls, so it was worth the intellectual headaches. Anyway. I don't see the problem with the objectification of women if they're happy to play the same game. Two wrongs don't make a right, but if women have a problem with that they should start correcting themselves first before they attack men for doing the same. We have a Dutch saying. "If you want to make the world a better place, start with yourself first." Misogynistic commercials make me sick too, but they're aimed at men's deepest desires. Many companies want to exploit these desires, because it works for them. Financially. If there's anything women want to do about that, take it up with the law and get these types of commercials banned. Don't force men to feel bad about liking these commercials. That's just wrong.
Well, yeah. That was my point. Why wait for women to stop objectifying men? And why shouldn't men also petition the government to legislate against sexist media?
Its a good point. Although I'd also question the significance of you being older generally considering younger people at 18/19 would still be in the booze and sex craze more tham a mid 20 year old, and the significance of how much uni exposes you to different people generally. I've had a few friends be very surprised at how many stupid people they've met at uni for example . I'm not saying you're wrong since that would be a very strange coincidence, but they're two factors I'm curious about.
If you think the problems of men and women are in any way equal, you're out of your mind. Education. Making slut shaming unacceptable. Not trivialising sexual assault. Fixing the justice system so women feel they can come forward when they have been raped. Working to reverse the objectification and dehumanisation of women. Those are just some of the things we can do to combat rape, but I'm sure you're too busy dealing with your man problems to be part of the solution. Your car isn't going to wash itself, now is it? OH MY GOD. You're actually going there? And you think you're one of the good guys? Seriously? You think misogyny is human nature? Speak for yourself, not for the rest of us. No, you tell people you're pro-equality. Your actual words betray you, however.
I was talking about the difference between the attitudes of my peers at 18 (and also my brother's peers 5 years previously) and 18 year olds in 2006. Not the difference between my attitudes at 26 and 18 year olds in 2006. I'd already had a uni "experience" at 18, when I sneakily lived in my girlfriend's halls for a year. It could be coincidence, but there was a big difference in attitudes. Not from everyone, but a frighteningly large minority.
You don't have to like me, but at least read properly what I say and don't just go off into your own little world about what you think I'm trying to say. You got me in trouble the last time too for taking the things I said out of context. I got too defensive about it back then and said a lot of stupid things I regret, but I'm never going to bite your bait again. I'm usually controversial on purpose, because I like to discuss things at the root of the problem. A lot of times people neglect certain perspectives into a problem and don't look at it from all angles. I believe you can't truly underline a problem without doing that. So how about talking to me like I'm a person for once?
I think that men raping women is a problem for men. What we need, to bring despicable actions like this down to the absolute minimum, is a world full of happy, well-adjusted, educated, confident and caring people. A world where everyone is seen as a person. To tackle that on an ad-hoc, symptom-focused basis, I think, will only get you so far. Not that it's not worth doing, but your yield will always be limited.
Pretending that the problems of men and women are equal is part of the problem. Pretending that society already treats men and women equal is part of the problem. Pretending that everything will just get better if we carry on as we are is part of the problem. I choose not to be part of the problem.
Perhaps when you start viewing the other half of the population, that don't have the same genitals as you, as people maybe I'll treat you like one? Deal?
Good. We agree completely then. Women still being 2nd class citizens is our problem. It's not just women's problem.
We SHOULD, but women can't expect men to do this as it's not their problem. Meaning, they're not as aware of the problem as women are.
Man...the irony of people getting annoyed by being called part of the problem and then exhibiting views that show they are absolutely part of the problem. No wonder we need feminism.
Come on, Mr. Smith. You can find someone attractive and still consider them a person. People like being around people they find attractive. All people of all sexualities. Sex is a big part of being human. We don't have to neuter ourselves to treat each other with respect.
