Pressure Point Fighting

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by ppko, Jun 1, 2004.

  1. evilkingston

    evilkingston 필요악

    i couldn't agree more
    my teacher even warned me about this

    not to offend anyone, but in most kyushoschools in my area (+ on the vids of their site), they just keep knocking out white + yellowbelts... that can't be all healthy.. :confused:
     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Think of it this way, have you ever been hit in a way that you felt hurt just a bit, then a few seconds later it really started to tingle or burn. These are usually hits directly on nerves and repeated hits on nerves can cause nerve damage.

    Have you been hit in the kidneys and gotton sick to your stomach? Repeated hits to the kidneys can cause them to shutdown.

    Have you ever been hit in the spine at the base of the skull, started to lose vision, hearing, and touch? Repreated hits there can cause permanent damage to the central nervous system.

    Have you ever been hit not all that hard along a blood vessel in the neck, or along the jawline or in the chin and started to see "stars"...

    It is a function of where you were hit, how you were hit, when you were hit, and how hard you were hit. All this rolls into technique and a bit of changing the odds to favor that you will hit the points rather than just trying to aim at a hard to hit target.

    When I say there are some places not to hit more than three times in two weeks, that is what I was told... but this is to be taken as a guideline, not a rule. The rule is don't overdue it with pressure points to a point of permanent damage to nerves and organs. It is not just hitting the points, it is how you hit them too that matters, the shape of the tools and the number of times hit to up the odds of getting a good hit out of it.

    You can use both, why is it one or the other. I have found that techniques are just tools, but having the right tool for the situation can make all the difference. Even soft hits can be very effective.

    By the way, I know nothing of light touch KO as a topic of this thread as we hit both hard and soft to pressure points, depending on the technique and the situation. I'd take that sucker punch and aim it right at the chin at an upwards vector or along the jawline in a crisp hit flowing into a rolling motion towards the blood vessels on the neck turning it and causing pull on the brain stem.

    Where are you aiming that sucker punch. It isn't just "somewhere" on the head is it?

    -------

    Oh also, I just re-read what I wrote. I did not intend to sound so forward. I think my words might have sounded kind of mean spirited. That was not the intention. Sorry to all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2005
  3. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I don't think that's the point to be honest. I certainly wouldn't call that 'baloney'. Its not a case of using a Newtonian model of gravity because 'its pretty much like the Einstein model' in most cases.

    Using TCM to explain or rationalise pressure point strikes is more like using models from economics to explain gravity. Its just a completely inappropriate and irrelevant model.

    If TCM explains it so well, how come so many tsubo (acupuncture points) are not necessarily the best places to strike. I've seen people hit points and call them by the names of tsubo, but in fact they're actually hitting different points, ones that they've found work better than the tsubo. Very odd.

    Mike
     
  4. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but its all just fairy tales. Name just about any sequence of points and I or some other creative soul can come up with a pseudo-TCM explanation of why its a good sequence of points to attack.

    Try reading the article on 'flowing colours' when applying nikyo, on the link I gave earlier. It quite clearly showed how you can suggest to students that one thing will work better than other and, if you do a good job of suggesting it, they will find exactly that. Suggestion is a very powerful tool. Do it well and you can get your students to believe all sorts of complete gibberish.

    So often I see martial artists referring to TCM as a 'science'. They make out it yields repeatable, reliable and predictable results. I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case. TCM is more like art than science. It doesn't have hard and fast rules or 'laws'. Every TCM practitioner I know would agree with me on that and, for the record, I have a qualification in TCM myself. Can't say I know many martial artists who can say the same.

    I don't mean to sound rude or blunt. All I suggest is you read the articles I suggested, which detail properly carried out, controlled studies on the subject. Then ask the 'TCM lobby' to show the published results of their research. Ask yourself which was carried out in a transparent manner, which was carried out using any form of controls, which was carried out in a rigorous way.

    Mike
     
  5. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    A great reply Mike, well grounded in common-sense.
     
  6. ppko

    ppko Valued Member

    I did read your articles but we have research that says otherwise, our research consists of being hooked up to medical equipment with medical staff on hand. here is a set of points for you. St17, St25, Sp6 the KO comes on Sp6. I know why the KO comes have seen it and done it (without the power of suggestion.
     
  7. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Is there somewhere where I can actually read through the protocol and results of the experiment? I'd be very interested to see exactly how the experimented was conducted and what it demonstrated.

    Mike
     
  8. shotokanwarrior

    shotokanwarrior I am the One

    Guys, what exactly is TCM? I'm getting left behind here.

    << removed for being too inflammatory >>

    Probably to the jaw hopefully causing concussion.

    And no, I don't think you sounded mean spirited or anything. Don't worry, I'm an obnoxious person myself and one of my favourite principles is 'make sure you can take a shot as well as dish one out.' I enact it in life.

    Wow...me being philosophical.

    Where are all our fullcontact fighters? What do they think of this???
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2005
  9. gedhab

    gedhab Valued Member

    TCM=Traditional Chinese Medicine.

    These include acupuncture/Tuina massage and use of Dit da Jow (fall Hit Wine) as well as bone setting etc.
     
  10. shotokanwarrior

    shotokanwarrior I am the One

    Is that fall, hit, wine or fall, hit, whine? :)
     
  11. gedhab

    gedhab Valued Member

    Well, you can do either one you prefer. I prefer to use the Dit Da Jow (fall Hit Wine). ;)
     
  12. Hawks

    Hawks Valued Member

    Just a question for the non PP believers

    What or how do you teach women and children to make up for the vast size and strength difference? Usually an attacker is going to pick someone he thinks isnt going to fight back or can even challenge him. They pick somebody smaller and weaker. That's why the were chosen in the first place. I understand peoples hesitaion with PP but then what is your answer for womens self defense? Like i posted earlier I have a friend whose daughter is taking Karate and they actually taught an 8 yr old to block a kick with a double hand down block and then step in and hit the attcker in the throat. I have 2 problems with this technique 1 she will shatter her forearms or at least break fingers trying to block that kick like that 2 being much smaller than her attacker she isnt going to have much of a chance reaching her attackers throat. The same Dojo also teach women the technique of stepping outside to counter a punch then grabbing the wrist and stepping in with her forearm and hitting the person at the elbow and pulling back on the wrist to "break the arm" again I have a couple o fissues with this technique 1 I dotn think that this will always work especially with a small women and much larger attacker. 2nd how do ever test this technique? Who is willing to sacrifice their own arm "on the off chance this would work" for someone to practice. Doesnt anyone else see the danger of sending people out on the street with a false sense of security?
     
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Hawks, I believe you are trying to raise a valid question, but at the same time, I believe you are confusing concepts with techniques. You can test out concepts on the streets in real confrontations or you can test them out in training using safer methods. The techniques may not be the same, but the concepts are.

    The only way to learn to fight is to fight, everything else is just theory and add on to what you already know. The way to teach then has to have a very high component of hands on experience. So you teach by having people train with intensity in a safe environment, this means against resistance. Striking can be with pads or against someone in a padded FIST suit, grappling means wrestling stand up and on the ground against resistance.

    For safety there are rules of engagement, safer versions of techniques used and safety equipment as well as control of techniques, but the bottom line is you have to get down and do it.

    You build a good fighting foundation with basics focusing on speed, power, and accuracy along with footwork and positioning AND experience against resisting opponents.

    Then you can add on the details of good technique such as the points to hit, the sequence of these hits, the tactics and strategies. Some of these details turn a "sport technique" into a "combat technique", some of these details add a level of awareness such as the use of weapons in the mix, but all of the principle concepts are the same.

    So look at the concepts as much as the techniques. Is the concept of jamming a kick valid? Now work it out hands on to develop the application. Is the concept of stepping off the line of attack valid? Now work it out hands on to develop the application. Then work out the details to fit the situation and goals.
     
  14. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Just for the record, I'm not doubting the usefulness of some pressure points. What I do question is the usefulness of TCM to either a) explain how they work or b) produce useful predictions about how the points should be used.

    And having questioned it in an open-minded manner I've still yet to see anything to indicate that TCM is actually useful in this regard.

    Mike
     
  15. Hawks

    Hawks Valued Member

    Mike
    I'm sure you have already said this but I will ask again. Have you ever worked with somone who is well trained in pressure point application? I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but I dont just believe something because someone told me it will work all of my PP experience is based on experiencing real pain at the hands of my class mates or my instructors. I have persoanlly seen PP work better using the cycle but in all fairness I should be able to do a similar technique where in one I hit galbladder on the head and for the another I hit Galbladdedr on the body. I will admit I do not get the same reaction. If the destructive cycle ws 100% it would be the Merdian points that matter not the location of the points so i cant say the cycle is 100% but if nothing else it can be used as great training tool.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2005
  16. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Yes, several people in fact.

    Mike
     
  17. Hawks

    Hawks Valued Member

    I dont think I am confusing concept and technique. If i teach someone that when a punch comes in I step to the outside and counter the punch then I grab the wrist and step in and hit them near the elbow with my forearm while I pull on their wrist to break the arm. This is NOT taught as a concept this is taught as a specifc self defense to a specific attack. I'm not saying all Dojos do this but I have seen quite a few that do. Not to be rude but I dont hear anyone saying anyhting about improper techniques that are taught that dont work. I have seen people here go off on PP theory, well I feel the same about BAD technique. What actually makes it worse is the idea of " well we cant work this full force or someone might get hurt" then how do you know it will ever work? IMO at least with the PP training I have done we actually train using the points not just the concept of the points. I have seen people extoll the virtue of reall training proper focus, speed and concentration but how does that translate to self defense moves you cant train and cant verify that they work? Am I the only when who feels a sense of responsibility for what I show a student? Why is everyone so quick to put down PP and then turn a blind eye to all of the bad techniques being shown?
     
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I see more of where you are coming from. Thanks for the clarification.

    Firstly, I don't put down the effectiveness of pressure points, what I put down is if someone has a reliance on pressure points. Pressure points have a very limited bandwidth and make good "add on" to techniques that should work WITHOUT the use of pressure points. What I mean is you have a mix or integration of pressure point strikes with techniques that utilize more of the gross motor functions. A mix of pressure point striking with techiniques that employ fundamental grappling and striking.

    What I see is people with fundamental grappling and striking but that have no idea what to aim for, no concept of the importance of accuracy. Then they hit someone "somewhere" on the side of the head with a punch and don't have a clue if they are hitting a good spot or not. They try this against someone much bigger than them and it does nothing to hurt the bigger opponent.


    On the other hand, I see people you rely too much on flow and accuracy to make things work. They take one good punch in the face and their accuracy goes out the door on top of having no clue what to do when the pressure points don't have the same affect because the opponent is wearing thick winter clothes or body armor, and possibly under the influence of mind-altering drugs.

    Anyway, as far as your point about bad techniques being taught, I don't think anyone is ignoring that is a problem, it is all in a context of what we are talking about. I completely agree with you that we should be responsible for what we show and teach others.

    However, to me the only bad technique is one that ingrains bad habits or one that gets you seriously hurt. Otherwise, it is relative what is bad or not. If you are much stronger than an opponent, you might be able to make a "bad technique" work by applying sheer strength.

    This is why I try to focus on concepts more than techniques.

    IMHO, there is nothing wrong with teaching a technique that grabs a punch, and then applies an arm bar or wrist lock, even if 99 out of 100 times you will never get that technique to work in a real fight. The reason is that it gives a starting point from where to make adjustments. It starts with the concept of stepping off the line of attack, it incorporates a deflection block. If the block does not work, such as if the student is just trying to grab the punch out of the air or if the student focuses so much on the punch that they are left open to a hook or kick or some other attack, then we fix that. Now we work on the technique of the wrist lock and take down. At this point we add some resistance such as pulling the arm back and the opponent hitting with their other hand. It becomes evident that the technique does not work. This is great because it is now the point that a technique can be broken down into concepts. A student is missing the concept of controlling delivery systems, in this case control of the arm, mostly at the elbow. So we work the arm "catch" or the arm "pin" to neutralize the opponent's delivery system and set up the lock or another technique as appropriate.

    Then we change the punch to a knife attack, and test it out. Going back to slow speed as necessary to work on the details of technique. Now we are ready to perfect the technique with all the details and variations...

    So I say that perfect technique can only come after understanding and experience with applying the underlying concepts for the technique.

    Any technique shown or taught or used before the concepts are understood with hands on experience, will be sloppy and not nearly as effective against someone much bigger and stronger.

    Pressure points are some of the details that come for perfect technique. They are not the concepts, they are not the fundamentals of fighting.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2005
  19. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I don't know about confusing concept and technique, but you're statement does seem a little confused. I'm certainly not advocating bad technique, can't say I've noticed anyone else do so either. I don't think that's got anything to do with questioning the validity of TCM as applied to the use of pressure points. Seems like a bit of a red herring to me.

    Mike
     
  20. Hawks

    Hawks Valued Member

    Mike
    I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I have seen HORRIBLE technique taught in plenty of Dojos. I am suprised at everyone being so quick to point out how bad Pressure Points are but gloss over the fact that there are inefectual techniques being taught everyday. Have you taken the time to post with such vehemence about the other bad training being done? What I am saying is that I have seen alot of people quick to point out that Pressure Points dont work and that we are all just programed to responde to them. Why then isnt anyone pointing the other flawed technique being taught? I am always suprised but the sheer venom that can be spit out by people over the PP topic. I'm not saying thats you Mike. I have found your posts to be very respectful and informative.
     

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