Hi All, I originally posted this on the FMA forum but was told to post it here. So my question is Does anybody here know anything about the Piper System the South African Knife fighting system? LB
hello, it looks a bit like a certain silat system that i know of. the knife work of said silat system, anyway. it also has the same "precepts" of offense all the time. unfortunately this silat knife i know of isn't publically taught, so i wouldn't know of it's relationship lineage to piper. could be a modification of cape malay silat knife and modern combatives (knife).
Hi there Piper system is a style of fighting developed by the criminal element in South Africa. It's being codified and popularized by a certain gentleman as detailed below in this video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhpAsE8z6JI"]YouTube - Piper System - South African Knife Combatives[/ame] Best regards, -Mark
I live in Cape Town. From my experience, the local knife work is similar to what the piper system is teaching, but from 1st hand it's a bit different. Less technique orientated. The main thing is the attitude and the body. The eyes say "come I kill you". The body is loose, almost floppy, and it sways. The person moves as if he doesn't care if you hit him. If you try hit the body it molds around your strike like a rag doll, the eyes laugh and the mouth smirks. The hands hide the knife, either through movement or no movement. You not sure which hand is holding the knife. The attack is fast, sneaky and repetitive, in a hacking action. I'm not sure of its history, but the morgues over the weekends are living (dead) proof of this technique's effectiveness.
Actually, there is some reason to believe that this guy basically created the system and gave it a more impressive history. How much is based on what local criminals do is a matter of debate, but it seems pretty clear that there is not an organized system among criminals in SA. I was taught it and how to exploit the flaws in the system. If you want to defend yourself, there are a lot better methods that are more commonly available. Using this against someone with their own weapon is a form of suicide IMO.
You learned Piper from Nigel or Lloyd directly? Or one of the other guys? I know they have some Guardians in America also. Did you learn from those guys?
Actually, I learned if from one of the guys Nigel and Lloyd tried to beta test the system on. Their story was a lot different a few years ago. If you want to wait in the bushes, jump out and attack your ex-girlfriend with a knife, piper might be for you. If you want to defend yourself against an attacker, you are not going to do very well using it.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if you feel that you need to learn a weapon art to be able to defend yourself in your neighbourhood, you need to move home.
Hi guys, In response to Don. That is exactly what Nigel says and has always said. “He created Piper.” He does not say it was given to him by an African Elder of an unknown tribe, or that it is a secret art handed down through his family or all of the other fantasies things we here to create credibility in a system. He states it is a combat system he created 10 years ago based on the knife fighting methods that are found on the Cape Flats. Nothing more, nothing less. You wrote “You were taught it and how to exploit the flaws in the system.” What flaws specifically have you been taught to exploit? And specifically who taught you the Piper system? You wrote "their story is allot different than years ago"...what story? Piper is what it is; no story needed. Actually there is no debate amongst people who live in this area as owl stated. This is how the local knife work looks. The only debate I see about Piper seems to be among people who have never been to cape town or south Africa. Owl you are absolutely right. South Africa is without question the stabbing capital of the world. And you are right again the method you see in Piper is what is sending people to the morgues. Dave Humm..that was hilarious. I am sure Nigel would laugh at that comment as well. If you have questions about the Piper system please contact the guys from South Africa. Nigel and Lloyd are incredible martial artists and both very nice guys. What you won’t find when you contact them. Titles like Supreme Grandmaster etc. Dvd’s for sale that people can purchase and become instructors online. Guys who are going to try and convince you to train with them. What you will find, are very accomplished martial artsist, who are well read and educated on all areas of combat. In fact Nigel teaches both Silat and Capoeria as well. In the end the Piper group is bunch of guys who took an evil thing that kills people daily and dissected so that others can learn to fight with it and defend against it. That’s the story of Piper.
That would depend of course on where one lived in the world for 'Piper' to be of any value because, as with the UK, there are many other countries which have laws against the carrying of a knife. I have mixed feelings and opinions about knife fighting systems and those who routienly carry a knife for supposed self defense. But that's just me. Dave
Agreed. But here in the United States we are allowed at least in the state I live to carry a knife. Here are my thoughts Dave. I grew up in a city called Detroit. It was the crime capital of the world at one point. After years of seeing street violence I really through myself in martial arts training. But quickly realized outside of a one on one fight I was still in big trouble. This disturbed me because I hardly ever witnessed a one on one fight. So I took up what is referred to as combatives training. Combatives as I train it as was taught is self-defense but with a very hard and realistic view of the world. It accepts 3 realities which I witnessed all of the time and confirmed as true. 1. On the urban streets fights rarely happen one on one. Punks, gangs and even sports teams fight in packs. 2. On the urbans streets thugs criminals gangs and jerks often carry weapons (They could careless about laws even if guys like you and me do.) 3. on the urban street you fight in an unprotected environment. Being slammed on a matt is far different then being slammed on the concrete. Being pushed against ropes in a boxing match is different then someone trying to push you into oncoming traffic as almost happened to me. I have seen a tremendous amount of violence. The city I spoke both my father and uncl were Law Enforcement their. I came to the reality that fights are never fair and that it is always better to have some time of weapon to defend oneself. Most times brandishing that weapon can end most fights but I have personally found no matter how good someone is I have yet to see a guy take on 3 at one time without the use of a weapon of some sort. Pipers expertise is the blade and they are very good at it.
I don't doubt what you say and the situation you describe is dire to say the least however, to spin this to the other side of the world. Here in the UK with the laws as they stand, anyone caught carrying a knife seriously risks prison time (or some other form of punishment) regardless of their actual intent.
I understand. It is a complex issue to say the least. Do you carry and risk prison time for doing so...or do you not carry and risk an assault or worse. That is a tough decision for anyone to make. It is my opinion only but it seems that laws never keep the weapons out of the hands of the criminals, only from law abiding citizens. As for me I carry a concealed edged weapon and my Glock 27. The only person who even knows I carry is my wife. My friends and other family members do not even know. I suppose we are all shaped by our past. Thanks for giving me something to think about. Take care Dave, Rob
Ironicaly mate.. my secondary weapon is a 9mm HP or Sig 226 and if I'm wearing belt order I'm always carrying a bayonet. The problem for me of course is that my weapons carry isn't primarily for self defence reasons so my head isn't in that place, that and of course I cannot carry any form of weapon out side of work activity. Mores the pity. Regards as always
Thanks for posting what you know. Maybe I'll ask Lloyd to post something if he has time ... it's better if they speak directly.
agreed. i speak to nigel quite frequently. i get the feeling he is just over it. the controversy that is. basically he created it, he teaches it, he believes in it and that settles it. in fact the very first correspondance i had with him he said 'look this is not aan ancient system taught through my family line. i did not learn from some elder of an african tribe. no one came to me in a dream. i simply observed, studied, codified the way criminals attack here in Cape Town...I gave it a name....Piper. Thats it.
