[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaBkG_bAYQ0&mode=related&search="]Pencak Silat Cimande Macan Guling Presentation Clip - YouTube[/ame] Can someone school me on what the ground work shown in this vid relates to in reality? I know this is a demo... but at points he does what comes off as a big ass fish flop! What is the reasoning behind this sort of ground work. That and all the knee's crossed and the stretched out on the ground bit? Not knowing much about this kind of art... it just seems ridiculous and dangerous.
Yep, looks a lot like the type of stuff I did at Ann Arbor's resident Silat McDojo. Lots of flashy forms, stances that made me feel like I had scoliosis, and nothing that resembles actual hand to hand combat. I'm sure there is plenty of good Silat out there. But my desire to dislike it is so strong.....
moved to silat. Ive seen some bad Silat, but that was BAAAAAAD! Primary principle of silat is flow. I saw no flow there, but start.stop.start.fast.stop.start.slow.fast.stop Terrible. Words fail me really.
Although I am not an exponent of Javanese silat, the art demonstrated here did seem to conform to the principles I have learnt from practising Silat Tua here in Malaysia. Whilst I agree that flow is important there are also other equally important principles which seemed to be present in the demonstrations. It is very hard to be constructively critical without knowing what the exponent is trying to demonstrate and also without having some understanding of the cultural context of the art in question. Whilst some of the ground movement might not conform to what some might regard as the "realities" of fighting, it is hard to judge their efficacy without actually seeing the exponent fight. In summary I think, in my limited experience, this demonstration would be regarded as a legitimate presentation of competent silat skills by the silat exponents I know here. Of course the mores and expectations of Malaysian exponents might not be the same as those in the US and Ireland Best wishes Nigel Sutton
While respecting your opinion, I must disagree. Without flow it is not silat. Something drilled into me from many classes. My Silat has 11 principles. Flow being the most important, the others include armour, penetration, destruction, adhesion, thorn, decoy, compacting, bamboo, off timing and trapping. the importance of these will most likely vary depending on who you talk to, and their personal experience, but Flow should definately come tops in ways of evaluating good Silat.
Where do I start! The silat displayed is a mix of modern and more traditional silat. I don't see any of the smooth, fluid movements I am aquainted with, but I do see some remnants of older style movements. I don't think that the person performing them necessarily knows their application, and is just doing them for "artistic" purposes. Slip... The crossed legs, etc... is used (in what I train anyway), as throat choking techniquines, etc... while it's not like what this video shows, I can see it's origins. Like much silat, it has lost most of it's effectiveness, and has become an inside joke within the martial arts community. But lets also remember that it takes just one person to come along, take those movements and make them effective, so let's also keep our minds open.
Let us then agree to disagree now we are flowing! Indeed the concept of Lintar or flow is also important in some of the silat that I practise but is less important in say the buah pukul arts, where the concept of selak or "stopping dead" is sometimes more appropriate. This is something like the "kime" or focus of some Japanese arts. In the clip we are discussing some of the art they are practising appears to have Chinese influences, particularly the punching, blocking drill. Such practice in Malaysia would be regarded as being kuntau or buah pukul. I think one of the key things here you put your finger on when you said "My silat..." In my limited experience silat can be many different things to different people. Try for example to get two silat exponents from different schools to agree on the derivation of the word silat. In Silat Tua we say that it is derived from the Arabic term salasila which means something like heritage. There is some discussion of these things on www.silatmelayu.com as well as a sneak peek at my teacher's new book on Silat Tua. Could I ask which particular "style" or approach to silat you practise? Best wishes Nigel Sutton
Hi Nigel, I'll field that question form my perspective. I've not trained in Silat for a few months now, due to a plethora of reasons, but when I study I study Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.
It's definitely Silat. And honestly, I see a lot that's right and not much that's wrong here. The ground moves are familiar, and are common in other Silat stylings. It's a form of groundwork that stresses keeping the feet under you and getting back on them quickly. That makes a lot of sense, especially if you emphasize the arms and don't have the luxury of spending half an hour in the guard waiting for the other guy to make a mistake. It's better suited for fluid situations with more than one opponent. Flow? It's definitely there. It's slower. The movements are a little exaggerated. But you can see where the guy doing the long demo is taking his cue from the rhythm. Listen to the music. Good rhythm and flow can have pauses and sudden changes of tempo and direction. Just listen to any good traditional drummer. If they'd moved it up to 110 bpm it would have looked a lot different. That's also why a lot of the rotation was between rather than at the joints.
They're showing their stuff for the edification of people who are already familiar with Silat. They aren't there to prove anything, and we aren't the intended audience.
When I look at the demonstration of the pesilat in the clip, it looks OK to me. My experience is that not everything is shown in a demonstration. In our style we never show the core principles, techniques, etc. in public. What we show is just a show to entertain the public and it is not meant to show what you really do, when the situation calls for it. So when people say to me PS isn't that a dance?! Then I answer yes it could be, because I think it is better if people underestimate you. Garuda...
A Cimande Style Very well put, Tellner... I don't think that this is a demonstration, rather it is a dance - a type of kembangan. Not the kembangan as an exercise to put your tools together in the way that is practised, say, by Wali's school, but more kembangan as entertainment. In Malaysia it would be called, I think, Silat Pulut. The main reason here is for entertainment, theatre. Is the guy good? I would say YES. Look at his strong and fluid kuda-kuda, and his exceptional flow, from fast, to slow, from high to low. The silat he practises is Cimande Macan Guling (Rolling Tiger Cimande) and if you are not carefull fighting this man, you could, as Wali says, get your head caught in his feet and brought down with a thump. I think that he does know the aplications of what he is doing - but he is not demonstrating, he is entertaining. A similar silat style can be seen in the Pamacan demo in Sarge's silat master's website - the Pukulan Cimande Pusaka website. I believe that Gorka and his friends filmed this clip and put it up on youtube. Gorka sometimes posts here but you could find more information on his cimandefrance website. There are several clips he put up on youtube from this trip to Cimande-land, including one showing an old man demonstrating 'kebal' invinsibility by standing on sharp goloks. Now, that clip is a Cimande demonstration. Warm salaams to all, Bram.
Salam hormat all, First off, my apologies if my post offends anyone in the forum. That is not my intention. The reason I am posting here is because everyone's voice, including that of the Indonesian quarter has been heard. But as a Malaysian, it is embarassing to see my brother, Nigel, come to the aid of my nation before any other Malaysian could. I agree in general with what Khatami (Nigel), Wali, Kiai Carita and Tellner have already posted. However, it seems to me, the disagreements stem from a common problem that all Nusantarians have, and one that we have unfortunately passed on to our brothers outside of the region, that is, what encompasses and defines silat? (or pencak, or maenpo, etc, etc) Slipthejab says, it looks like a "big ass fish flop!" but asks a valid question, what's with the cross legged bit? One of the developmental manner of silat that I was educated in states "overestimate and overshoot". Of course, the words I used to translate this in English gains a negative connotation. It means train above and beyond your abilities and anticipate mastery of the opponent. If this guy truly can pop up from a coiled position on the ground at a snail's pace, you can bet he can do it fast. What, then, can he do when he stands up? If I misunderstood what you meant, please email me personally at webmaster@silatmelayu.com. Maybe I could understand your perspective better. Yohan says, "...the ground stuff was retarded". I understand retarded. But this had no retardation. It was in fact, it showcased quite a vast range of abilities TheMightyMcClaw says, "and nothing that resembles actual hand to hand combat" probably because he understands a combat demonstration to showcase combat skills. However, this is a cultural demonstration that doesn't involve two people beating the crap out of each other for the fun of people who like to watch. Sgt Major says, "Primary principle of silat is flow. I saw no flow there, but start.stop.start.fast.stop.start.slow.fast.stop". I disagree with you on this. The way I was taught, there IS no primary principle of silat. There is only one principle seen from seven angles: Ruang (Space), Titik (Stop), Alif (Straight Energy), Lam Alif (Coiled Energy), Mata Angin (Compass Directions), Jantan Betina (Equilibrium), and Jengkal (Measurement). In my experience, all silat, in fact all human motion is bound by this one principle of seven. What you saw was the interchanging of these principles within one performance. Khatami says, "Of course the mores and expectations of Malaysian exponents might not be the same as those in the US and Ireland". I agree. When a demonstration like this is put on, no one expects to see a real fight, just a really good performance. Surely, this concept can't be alien to anyone who knows what the WWE is about... hmmmm... maybe not. Sgt Major says, "My Silat has 11 principles. Flow being the most important, the others include armour, penetration, destruction, adhesion, thorn, decoy, compacting, bamboo, off timing and trapping". Interesting. Would you like to start an email discussion on this? I'd like to know more. Wali says, "I don't see any of the smooth, fluid movements I am aquainted with, but I do see some remnants of older style movements". I agree. There is definitely a mixture and influence of non-silat especially in the kicks and some of the forward postures. Khatami says, "...where the concept of selak or "stopping dead" is sometimes more appropriate". I know for a fact, Nigel has stopped dead several LianPadukan people. Tellner says, "It's definitely Silat." Thank you! TheMightyMcClaw says, "Thus highlighting the main problem with the demo - they don't show anything of martial value". This is because valuation is a three component process. There has to be the subject which in this case is the demonstration, perceiver, which is us and perception which we gain from experience and context. For those who find value in this, we have a common perception, even though not all of us are from the same culture. For myself, I see a huge martial value in what he performed. It'll take many, many posts to get this across, but if anyone is willing, I will try. Tellner says, "...we aren't the intended audience" Thank you again! Salam persilatan
Welcome Brother Nadzrin. I was glad to read your comments and those of the others who did not feel negatively about this performance. I was worried that I was looking at the performance from a very skewed viewpoint. Then I too looked at the Cimande demonstrated on William Sanders' site and didn't see much difference in some of the performances from that being discussed here. I would be very interested to know more about the principles upon which the different approaches to silat are based. I was discussing this very thing with my teacher this afternoon. His take on the whole flow thing, as it relates to Silat Tua, was that while Lintar (flow) was important, all of the other principles were equally important but if you had to pick one that was fundamental it would be jantan betina, the constant interchange of opposites, similar to the principle of yin yang in Chinese arts. I look forward to hearing more about the broad principles of the art. Best wishes Nigel Sutton
Not all silat is based on animal forms like this one. Still, I can see some common silat characteristics: the intercepting 'suliwa' movement which parries the punch and hyperextends the elbow, and limb destructions on the high-line and low-line. I even saw what i believe was a one-leg takedown, where he lunges at what would have been his enemy's shin. The deep crouching postures force/invite a standing opponent to attack with the legs. The pamacam player is basically playing possum on the ground, waiting to grab an incoming leg (or arm) and 'pounce' on his enemy. why don't we see stuff like this in MMA fights? because silat is a hard discipline to study; the teachers don't show all the applications right away and it's a very 'introverted' martial art; they're used to fighting against people who fight like themselves. Maybe if someone did some research, they might find a gem that could be useful in MMA-type competitions. Remember it took the kung-fu guys a looooooooonnnng time to come up with something that could stand up to the Thai Boxers.
