Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Grond, Sep 16, 2021.
What can't I take again?
Is this a conversation or a bull fight?
Patrick Swayze is considered by many authorities to be one of the finest male ballet dancers of the 21st century. Just take a look at who trained him to dance, let alone fight.
Not to mention, Swayze's martial arts skill would be used two years later to fight none other than Mr. Keanu Reeves himself, in another little movie where Swayze did his own martial arts and surfing stunts. They fight several times in the movie and the final one, on a very particular beach, is considered to be one of the most accurate fight portrayals on film today.
"He made fifty-five jumps in total. For many of the surfing scenes, Patrick Swayze refused to use a stunt double, as he never had one for fight scenes or car chases. The film was originally called "Johnny Utah" when Keanu Reeves was cast in the title role."
Point Break (1991) - Trivia - IMDb
Why did this come up? I had the audacity to claim I got into Tai Chi because of Patrick Swayze. Oh bother. I'll admit, Keanu played a role, as did Donnie Yen, but not as much.
I'd ask that you please do not, for one reason.
Name the big American cinema actors, from 1980+, with famous Tai Chi scenes.
If' I'm not mistaken he was the first. I get that "the real" Tai Chi folks are upset at this, but it's a truism.
If Clark Gable or Frank Sinatra had ever filmed themselves doing Tai Chi in the morning sun? Can you just imagine how different the whole world might be?
Mod note: That isn't the point of this thread though. The original topic is getting derailed. I am not talking about deleting it, but moving it so that both conversations can take place. I started moving it, but there seems to be a glitch. I will pause and ask the other moderators..
Is that true though? How do you discern a good Tai Chi lesson? This is exactly my immediate, daily challenge.
I started my own Tai Chi classes because of Patrick Swayze, but apparently I (and many other people) was under the wrong impression of what was considered good Tai Chi. SO in a way this thread is the razor's edge of the art. And as an artist I think we should respect Swayze's memory by not dividing it up but keeping it very Dao.
I respect everyone's advice. Truly.
Hey, I can trace my own seed planted of doing Kung Fu to the TV show of the same name. It took decades to act on it, but I don't think I would have ever started if not for that show. Guess what? I own the first two seasons. Watched it after starting my martial arts journey, love the show, but the Kung Fu is actually quite bad! Pretty awful! Still like the show.
If someone tells me it's bad, I will agree. David Carradine may have been a great guy. I don't follow stars, so I don't know. That show influenced a lot of people to start martial arts. But that doesn't change the fact that once I got some experience under my sash, I recognized the actual Kung Fu was not good.
Saying it was awful King Fu does not lesson the impact of the show, nor is it slighting the soul of David Carradine.
If the movie got you started in Tai Chi, that is awesome. Being inspired by something, even if the skill level in that something is bad, is not really a contradiction. It doesn't have to be a conflict. It inspired you! Cool! Literally, some kids at my school start Kung Fu because of Manga and/ cartoons. It doesn't have to be good martial arts to get you into it. And no one is saying it is a bad movie because of the scene either. (I thought it was a mediocre film overall. Didn't love it, didn't hate it.)
No one is finding it weird you got into Tai Chi because of this.
Someone said this is a weird hill to die on. I agree. Your saying others should keep it Dao, that you think others should respect Swayze. That you even think saying the obvious truth about that scene is something you find insulting to him as a person. And the saying he was respected as a better dancer than professional dancers? Feeling you have to discuss what kind of human being he was? His acting credits??? Denying the shirtless muscle flexing was for sex appeal when he was a sex symbol back in the day? Well, it's been fun, but the zeal and sheer doggedness on which you keep insisting on defending his honor..............no offense, but I personally think it is getting into really bizarre territory.
This comment is separate from the mod issue, in case that isn't clear.
Mod Note: Decision about whether to split the thread will be made by the entire mod team. Any input/ questions on that should be continued via PM to any moderator so as not to derail the thread. Thanks.
All these comments of "swayze did such and such fight in such and such movie"
No, he didn't. He followed choreography that had been planned out by a coordinator. His dancing skills had more input on these scenes than his tai chi skills.
If Swayze was such an awesome fighter, why was he killed by Dame Maggie Smith in "Keeping Mum"?
Oh yeah, because it's a movie. The script demands it.
It's great that you were inspired by this movie. Heck, I was inspired to take up martial arts because of power rangers (the cast of which was made up of martial artists and gymnasts, one of whom has fought in MMA since). But I recognise that the fighting and martial arts portrayed on screen is VERY different to the real thing.
Does anyone remember the "Leave Britney Alone" video on YouTube? Yeah, I'm getting those vibes from this thread...
Actually I had to stop myself at 5, ok I'm calling bull on some of this, hundreds of millions of sales in overall video sales please site the source because lion king is considered to be the best selling video and dvd of all time with only 40 million sales.
And you are seriously asking for more help in seeing the demographic a violent, action film with sex and nudity in it was aimed at is different than the normal demographic for a tai chi class
And your main source for stating swayze was so good and so liked by Benny is that article, really that's where most of this is coming from.... Right in that case I'm out of this before it goes even further down the toilet
What authorities? The ballet police?
For a start Swayze died in 2009 at the age of 57 so your "21st century" timeline is off. The later parts of his life he was of an age when even professional ballet dancers retire and in his later years was ill so I doubt he did ballet in any sort of high level form in the 21st century itself.
And even if you meant "20th century" you'd then have to take into account that that century included the likes of Nureyev, Baryshnikov, Nijinsky, etc. So Swayze wouldn't even get in the top 10 (or 25 even).
Swayze was a great a dancer for sure, and probably a good martial artist, who parlayed that physical finesse into being a charismatic screen actor and hearthrob. But this level of hero worship is ridiculous.
It's a shame he was taken so early as I'm sure he would have matured into a good character actor (like in Donnie Darko). But then the chain smoking probably didn't help matters.
Mod Note: After moderator discussion, we have decided to split off this side topic from another thread. This thread was originally in this thread.
A few posts were even split - with parts relevant to the original topic left over there, but the parts relevant to this topic were moved here. (Let me tell you, that was not easy. whew. )
Needlessly tensing muscles isn't athleticism-except maybe in bodybuilding contests. It's an error.In TC or western boxing. You know this.
If athleticism was to be portrayed the postures would be executed with much longer stepping, deeper " postures" and a relaxed upper torso.
As I stated earlier,if he'd had any actual training beyond just remembering some gross movements he would have looked much better. Even tensed up.
The guy studied motion. If he'd actually learned some and had a little practice time how could he not have looked good,at least to a layperson?
This is why I'm saying he obviously didn't know/practice it. He was too talented to look so poor.
I f you love the atmosphere of the scene that's fine. The poor TC detracts from it for many.That's all.
The overabundance of the "cosmic" TC stuff.
The postures are taken from some Yang line. Unrecognizable which,tho'. Somebody could've got 'em out of a book for that matter.
The thing from ringer-that was humor.
Well,I'm glad that's settled.And my Uncle Sunny could've kicked Swayze's.Naah!Naah!
What in Woden's name does this have to do with him pretending to do TC in film?
What nitpicking? And we'd all be saying the same thing if it was Marvin Hagler doing it like that. A truly bad mutha'.
I could not find anything on him and actually learning TC. Please enlighten.
Shown in the film to portray the "softer" side of his martial skills-yeah,that works. Don't forget he was supposed to have a philosophy degree,so the TC could be reflecting that side. "Cause,y'know, TC is down with philosophy. Grooooovy.
No record of Benny doing TC.
I'll just bow to Icefield on this-
Also star pupil,not star fighter.
I didn't know any of those guys that were idolizing Swayze or Piper. But I wasn't running around with junior high kids when those films came out.
Isn't that what most of us have been saying?
Honestly,Grond,I was surprised that with your overall background you couldn't see it.Even if you hadn't studied TC.
Right. One instructor.I wouldn't doubt that some people-relatively few- got interested because of the film. Howe'er,if he had such an influence it's interesting that during those years this influence was never publicly acknowledged-and I assure you that I was reading everything I could lay my hands on,nor did anyone I knew mention any new students 'cause of Swayze.
So I guess all these people were flocking to TC schools but there was a conspiracy of silence.
Yeah,and most are just commenting on the scene,the movie,Swayze.So what? I don't find tons of " I/my students was/were inspired to do TC by Swayze" items,which we should if this was so.
I'm a history guy. I feel any big influence idea is just revisionist history. There's nothing about any Swayze inspiration influence in my archives. Sure,the films been around for decades,so over time a few-relatively- more may have been inspired to do TC because of the film. OK.
Aahh,Uncle Sunny woulda whipped both of 'em. And being associated or no in the public eye means nil.
Most TC I've seen in films is poor. Excepting some "Gung Fu" films.
I hardly find celebrities doing TC in a film to have any importance. Pretty sure Reeves' profession is acting.I don't understand the quote marks.
Road House is sillier than Way of/Return of the Dragon-and not as funny.Here's a contemporary review.
Because people have forgotten Fred Astaire!
No one thought it was audacious of you to reveal your inspiration. People got inspired by Sho Kosugi,too. Or Segal.Or....
You do seem to have been defending someone who was not personally under attack,telling us about his dance,his training,his stuntwork,etc.All irrelevant to comments on a portrayal of TC which leaves a bit to be desired.
Who cares? I can just see Arnold now....
With great confidence I take upon myself the burden of speaking for the entire world TC community of "real" TC folks and proclaiming that we're not upset about Swayze being the first actor with much public exposure to do TC in a film.
Well.....nobody's upset except Henry Birnabaum,but we all know what a grouch he is.
Probably not very.
Slight side note. Do others here remember UFC champion Ronda Rousey was set to star in a remake of Roadhouse? Then she was KO'ed and the whole thing fell apart. Probably for the best. But it would have been interesting to see her take on the TCC scene!
It looks like a large part of the Yang 24 step based on the order it's performed.
This is probably exactly how I looked when I used to practise it on a hot day by the lake in my 20s
I hadn't actually seen this film until a few years ago, it was entertaining enough, and like most older films, appropriately length - until todays films which seem to have a 2 hour minimum run time.
I bet they would have made it a Rocky type montage hitting an old dusty punchbag in the barn, flipping tractor tyres, lifting logs and such. They'd make it MMA themed.
Actually Rousey has/had some really cool stick warm up drills that would look great properly lit and filmed.
See this is where we disagree. I don't view these simple discussions as battles, like some of you do. This isn't a hill, no one is dying, but if you really believe that, maybe you spend too much time online. Maybe I'm just too relaxed from all the Tai Chi training.
Patrick Swayze was a professional dancer, he was a professional dancer admired by other professionals. Mother was a ballet master, father was a rodeo cowboy and boxer.
"From birth, Swayze was destined for the stage. His mother, choreographer and ballet teacher, Patsy Swayze, named him “Patrick Swayze” because she thought it would look good on a marquee. His father’s physical display skills included rodeo riding and boxing. Swayze learned much from both parents. His ballet education was topped off with stints at the Harkness and Joffrey ballet schools, which turned out top-flight professionals. Without being the high classical type in terms of finish and refinement, Swayze would still have found plenty of opportunity on the ballet stage of the 1970s but a knee injury cut him out. However, ballet isn’t the only kind of dance, and Swayze turned his efforts to the musical stage, chalking up a range of credits, spanning Grease on Broadway to Guys and Dolls in London in 2006. He launching himself on the screen in Skatetown USA in 1979."
As far as bizarre, I'm about to address as many of the questions asked of me as I can, in good faith as always, irregardless of their relatively uncivil comments. I don't think it's bizarre at all. What's bizarre is thinking we're all fighting on a hill, when in fact at least I thought we were having a discussion about discerning Good vs. Bad Tai Chi. I just happened to pick an excellent subject to examine, if I do say so myself.
People's Sexiest Man of the Year 1991, excellent.
Is Blazenka wrong?
Why do you think this is hero worship? Please, I'll bet if I went through your posts I'd find you posting far more glowing things about people far less deserving. I am posting facts about a particular martial arts and dancing icon, at least in the US.
It's true, Swayze is commonly found on top 10/20 lists, even ones that combine men and women like this one. This took me 5 seconds to find online, and it's just one example.
It's not just the US, either. Australia's dancers heart Swayze, too.
Which "cosmic stuff". I saw none.
Icefield, this is for you.
Are you aware that Benny was so impressed with Swayze, he recommended Patrick go into competitive kickboxing?
Something Patrick didn't do, probably to the betterment of all mankind? Can you imagine a post-Road House world where Swayze just became a competition fighter, and didn't go on to capture the hearts and minds of possibly billions of people?
And here at the start of this thread, Patrick's Bad Tai Chi that started it all. I really hope you're not "out" like you said. Just because the last thread spawned a new one is no reason to be upset.
Grond, I think you do not understand the idiom "weird hill to die on" and are turning it into a straw man. I would suggest you familiarize yourself with the phrase. I am not going to refute the straw man argument any further than that.
This has just gotten so weird, I can't even fathom it.
Again please just quote a single proper source for any of these claims you are making, just one.
Separate names with a comma.