Does look like a keris to me to...interesting to get a closer look at the sorsoran area, check there is a ganja or not. Could be an old dhapur karna-tinandhing with the symetrical sides. Yes, Narrue, a picture speaks a thousand words but you must also read the words. There are earlier images from Jawa depicting something like a keris-buddha, and also of pedhang lar bango with a ganja, like a long keris luk-1. I think the keris came from Jawa but of course it was seeded from China and India and the trade between the two ancients. I like Mr Lombard's thesis: iron is scarce in Jawa so they make their most potent iron weapon small. The scarcity of iron meant it was treated with outmost respect and curiosity, producing the idea of the different tuah of the different irons they came by based on the rasa of the iron and these conditions gave birth to the keris and it's hundreds of types of pamor. Warm salaams to all. Bram
Hi Kiai The kris depiction I showed of the Indonesian keris is said by keris experts to be the first depiction of the true keris in Indonesia, but if you know of one older I would love to see it. Compare what is accepted in Indonesia as the first depiction of the true keris with the south Indian temple carving.
What is even more interesting is that the south Indian keris has what looks to be a primitive Gajah whilst the Indonesian one does not. That would mean that the Indian depiction is more keris like then the Indonesian one!
Ganja or Gajah... I think you mean ganja, don't you. My eyes see a ganja on the Penataran relief, while the Indian one looks like it has a ridge... as if the ganja was to grip op. I like what Alan Maisey wrote responding to your thread on vikingsword but I would like to see the Chinese influence as well. No one seems to have studied this properly, as if ancient Jawa was just influenced by India when it was also heavily influenced by China, as well as having it's own character. Warm salaams, Bram.
No im talking about the area of the blade where the Telale Gadjah usually is. As for Chinese influences, yes you are correct. The Chinese Dong Son dagger influenced the design of the handle of early Indonesian keris i.e. a human with hands placed on stomach. Below is a picture of the Chinese Dong Son style dagger If you put the Chinese Dong Song style handle onto the Indian blade what you have is the first primitive Indonesian keris.
Some Information Thought you might like to see Alan's page: http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerissajen.html
With permission from Jens Nordlunde (Viking forum) I post this image taken from “Robert Elgood, Hindu Arms and Ritual. Page 122, fig. 11.18” It is a stone carving from the Rama Temple at Kumbakonam South India. The figure is clearly holding a keris on his right side. This is the second stone carving I have seen from South India which depicts a keris (this one has a wavy blade) If the keris has Indian origins then perhaps Silat also has much Indian influence? I always thought the Kembangan had Indian influences for example.
Silat's history is rooted in the Veidic culture. It's good that these carvings still exist as a reference point for people to see. Thanks Narrue!
Personally I think everyone has missed the point.... The kris looks like Kundalini Serpent's movement.... It might be an expression of that energy? I could be wrong though.
Well, the 'wavy snake' features very heavily in S. Indian imagery. This is called a Nagachandra, literaly serpent moon. Can't think why A pic from my temple-spotting days. I've got hundreds of pics like this and some of friezes depicting battle scenes. I'll have a good look through when I have time & post some relevent ones These are from Vijayanagara, a ruined city of the empire of the same name from South India. Note the dancing battle figures on the second pic.
If I remember correctly plotting the height of the moon in the sky over the course of a year will produce a sine wave i.e. serpent. Also the sea height rises and falls with the moons influence and if that’s not enough then there are cycles in humans and animals produced by its influence.
Colonial nature of academia! This thread reminds me of the version of British history we were 'fed' at school. i.e. Culture was given to the uncivilised British Celts by the Romans Suffices to say many of the artefacts attributed to the Romans because they were much too complex or intricate for the stupid Brits to create were later found to be totally British and not Roman at all and in fact much of our metalworking far surpassed the Romans So, wavy snakes & kundalini aside, my own personal view is that the Kris is quintisentially Malay/Indonesian. I do not doubt that the design is syncretic and influenced by both Indian & Chinese designs, but that does not mean it originated elsewhere. Let us not forget that Indonesian sailors travelled at least as far as Madagascar. A fact illustrated by the language of Madagascar, Malagasy. Malagasy is a language that originated in Borneo.
