In the classes I've recently started attending, the sensei teaches to turn the toes on the support foot outwards to open up the hips when throwing a front kick. I can't remember that I've ever been taught this before and it's actually giving me quite a bit of trouble! I'm curious, then, about how common this is. Has anyone else taught/been taught this way? Does it offer any kind of advantage over keeping the support foot facing straight forward?
In some karate styles this would be considered extremely bad practice. It may be a bad habit he's picked up due to flexibility issues. You are telegraphing the technique and turning your supporting leg (and hip) away from the direction in which the power should be travelling. You have essentially diverted power off to the side when it should be going forward in support of the kicking leg. It allows you to kick a few inches further, but at the expense of speed and power and realistically distance should never be a problem with this kick because a good practitioner can skid/glide forwards on the supporting foot to cover distance (but only if their foot is pointing forwards) with the momentum of the knee raise and pelvic thrust in the kick itself.
No, we don't turn the supporting foot in front kicks. That is very different from how we are taught. (This is from a CLF Kung Fu prespective- not karate.) What jwt says makes perfect sense to me.
Yep, What John said... Also for us older practitioners I suspect you could end up with some nasty knee-related repetitive strain injuries...
I've seen it in some styles as it allows a slightly greater ROM with the hips to give a little extra reach, slightly improved balance and supposedly a bit more "oomph" behind it. Usually when I see that though its' in styles where every kick starts from the same position though and it saves you pivoting your supporting leg as much if you aim for mawashi geri/sokuto geri (etc). It's also nice if you don't have much flexibility. In other styles it would be seen as being very bad though.
No. Body power goes where the feet point (with very few exceptions). If your supporting foot is pointing in a different direction to that of the attack you will lose power (side thrust kicks are different due to the rolling over of the hip which you don't get in a front kick).
I disagree. I pivot on my supporting foot on all kicks to some degree. For me it allows the hip to properly open and travel through and protects the supporting knee from having to deal with roational forces while the foot remains static. To do a front kick while not rotating a bit would feel like I was leaving half my body weight behind. I agree to a degree but also feel body power goes where the body weight is moving too. So if you can rotate your foot to commit more body weight then power will increase even if the foot is pointing in a different direction. The thai front kick/teep is also thrown with varying degrees of supporting foot rotation. In some case ending up in a sort of front kick/sidekick hybrid. Now obviously Thai's are far more concerned with effect rather than aesthetic so I think in most case they don't even think about it too much.
In fact I can't find a picture of a Thai teep where the supporting foot ISN'T rotated to some degree. I'd be perfectly happy being able to front kick like Buakaw. Up on the toes, foot rotated and plenty of body weight going in.
I think this may be a flexibility issue. I have worked a lot on my flexibility so that my foot does not need to turn out for me to thrust my pelvis forward with the kick or place stress on the knee joint by turning. Looking at my foot it shifts outwards by about 1cm as I move to full extension, this keeps it in line and position for a classic front stance on landing (and also makes retracting to a post kick retreat easier). What rotational forces are you talking about? I bring my foot up and thrust forward, the ball of the foot travelling in a straight line from the floor to the target. Turning on the foot as you front kick creates a rotational stress that shouldn't really be there. I have seen some people actually slap the foot out to the side before raising the knee for the kick: this has always seemed telegraphic to me, plus it means you are thrusting forward with the knee at the wrong angle (90 degrees to the target) for the joint's safety.
I'll have to go and do some front kicks somewhere quiet. I've not really analysed how I do them for years.
Most people, even people intending to keep their foot straight, turn their foot as they do not have the requisite flexibility to keep it straight.
My Wado ryu instructor does this, as his instructor did before him. When we're practising sonoba keri (stationary kicks), we naturally stand with the feet at 45 degrees anyway, so there's no need for additional rotation. When practising moving keri however, the front foot normally pivots 45 degrees as the hips rotate forward, causing the rear heel to start raising itself. Then from there, you go through with the kick. I haven't noticed any strain on my knee either, but then I'm about to turn 27, so I'm probably too young to start complaining like JWT My old goju ryu instructor was another one who used to kick with the front foot pointed forward. I found pulling the kick back to get away was quicker, but it also felt like I was holding back on the impact. Mind you, his preference was for light contact sports karate and rarely did anything heavier than that so that could be something to do with it.
Whilst I agree with John in that pointing the feet in the direction of a kick increases power, this is not universally true... We are all made differently, you have to consider all the variation of ankle, knee and hip joints and differing muscle strength and flexibility - And please note the preceding is a layman's viewpoint - an informed scientific viewpoint of the body will show that individual variance is even more significant. And... You TEND to kick best (fastest, most power, most accuracy, etc...) the way YOU kick... So my way may or may not be your way... I always show my students what I consider to be the 'right way' to do a technique but tell them to experiment and see what works best for them as an individual...
Just found a quiet corner. I definitely pivot on my supporting foot so it ends up pointing to about 45 degrees or so (if it starts straight on). I feel as though the major component of a front kick that produces power is driving the pelvis through and forwards. And I can't get my pelvis fully through if I keep my support leg static. Keeping the foot straight feels as though I'm leaving my pelvis behind. Maybe it's a flexibility issue? Maybe doing Thai for a few years had an effect on my form but I've a feeling I've always done it this way and would generally encourage anyone to pivot if their body needs it to prevent injury.
I don't feel strain on my knee. It's people who over turn in my experience that feel strain. There are a few interesting strength and flexibility exercises you can do by adopting the knee high chamber position with the ball of your foot on a wall and then working the degree of push/pull against the wall with your different muscle groups, plus varying the angle of the supporting foot and hip along with the supporting leg bend. We'll have to discuss your age related comments at the MAP Meet. :Angel:
From my own experiences having the supporting foot slightly pivoted off at 45 degrees (up to anyway) for the front kick does allow greater freedom of movement and range. In turn I've found I can connect a little harder with the target by doing this and feel a little more stable doing so. In some ways, I'm not sure if its' all that different to trying mawashi geri without turning the supporting foot. To be fair this is probably more a flexibility issue in my case, but I find it helps.
This sounds like the way I am being taught. Strangely enough, the sensei's main art is goju ryu. Honestly I find it very awkward with the front kick. Turning just a bit, so that my knee is facing forwards makes it a bit easier, but turning more than 30 degrees or so... I think my brain is expecting a side kick or roundhouse. It makes pushing the pelvis forward a bit awkward as well.
To be honest if I don't turn my supporting leg a little it feels like it's just getting in the way as the kicking leg travels through.
