Not Tapping to help learning?

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by mattt, Jan 20, 2014.

  1. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Was rolling with this guy today, I guess an 8yr purp. He doesn't have a passing game, he is super tense and relies on falling back into straight footlocks.

    I've noticed that he slams on these locks really aggressively, and frequently I just tap since I feel threatened, however today we were in a 50/50 game and I calmly pulled him into sweet heelhook position (I didn't apply it, just bent the leg into the sweet spot) he freaked out and was going very hard on my ankles when he could.

    I decided to not tap, chill out and watch him (that's a fun thing to do if you want to gauge someone BTW) and in the end after he cranked for about 20 seconds with his entire body I tapped and shook my head.

    My goal was not to tap in order to help understand his technique was off a bit, and to keep calm he would match my pace (I guess I need to work on reprogramming him more) but I was at risk, since the amount of force involved if he got lucky and found the right spot he would have cause serious harm.

    I wouldn't do this with 'an enemy' but I have been training with this guy for years, and want to help him learn - is this something you would do too, or would you keep on tapping early even when his technique isn't right?
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Ok, I don't grapple, but isn't the point of tapping to avoid serious injury?

    Is any lesson worth a potential injury? My understanding is heel hooks are particularly nasty.

    Are you his teacher? If so, isn't there another way to help him learn? If you aren't. why not talk to a teacher and let them take care of it? That is their job, right? Or you could just tell him what you see to help him? Or is he not open to listen to what others say?
  3. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    You should tap when the lock is applied, but many people (most?) tap as soon as they feel their position is unrecoverable and you're right, that means the person applying the lock wont ever know if it's really on or not. If he is being so aggressive in training that you aren't willing to risk him snapping it on and injuring you, you should tell him to stop acting like a tool.
  4. righty

    righty Valued Member

    I don't get it.

    You didn't tap and it seems you didn't need to anyway in this case.
  5. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    He means he sometimes taps before the lock is applied because he's worried the guy is going to power through and do damage before he has a chance to tap out.
  6. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Yes, I do this when I feel that the other person is a risk/out of control. In this case he is physically strong and applying everything he had to submit me on that lock. Eyes rolling to the back of his head 100% power.

    He had it about 1.5inches above the position for an Achilles lock, so I have pain there now, but nothing too serious. But he was freaking out trying to finish the move, so it could have slipped and I was in a real danger zone, whilst all I was feeling was pain, if he had slipped into the correct position to a straight foot lock or Achilles lock it would have been serious time off training.
  7. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    I always tap once it's on. But it has to be on. If my structure isn't broken down enough (which is what your situation sounds like) then it isn't happening. As for tempo, I'll keep it chill for a while but there comes a point where I tend to match pace.

    But really it sounds like the guy isn't getting the technical experience he needs. (whether no one's taking him aside and teaching or he's just not open to it) You say he's falling back into leglocks instead of breaking guard and stacking first? Lacks fundamentals. Same for trying to race a straight footlock against a heel hook. Same for feeding his feet while footlocking.

    Aggression and intensity are almost always a substitute for structure and timing. (now there's nothing wrong with using it to cover gaps in competition, and to do that you need to train with it sometimes, but too many people let it become a crutch.)
  8. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I tend to chide people about tapping early. Every gym has the people who slap stuff on hard and that's a fair reason to tap. Otherwise though it causes problems for the attacker and sometimes you underestimate yourself. Sure everyone has escaped subs they were sure were going to tap them. That said I do tap early to armbars if I know its incredibly tight. As in, my elbow's already locked out before they fall back. That's a case where both people know it was a good sub though.

    Also sometimes positional taps make sense if its a stalemate. I know a few guys would rather tap to a sub that isn't on and carry on rolling rather than sit in a position for 4 minutes.
  9. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Well, yes, the point of tapping can be to prevent serious injury because your opponent is supposed to stop at that point, however I also use tapping as a training guide.

    I match my training to the person I am facing, today one person is a nice older guy, who just doesn't have the physicality. I have about 40lbs on him so pretty much anything he tries I could just muscle out of, however I don't, I allow him to work his technique and I dial down my pace and my technique to his level, and if he gets something on with legitimate use of technique (even if I could power out of it) I tap.

    I find it positive reinforcement in this manner. Likewise, I was thinking to not tap to negatively reinforce poor technique.

    I had him in the Heel Hook, and was being playful with my technique, he had no reason to freak if he matched my pace.

    This isn't something my teacher would care about, and nor is it something I would bring up - I think it would be weird 'Mr X is way worse than he should be, and I tried to help him out by not tapping but he isn't getting it' I guess the reply would be 'tap him out then'. So that is probably the best course of action.

    I do like the guy, but he is a person that has listening problems, everything is a oneupmanship, I'd like to help his game since it is become narrow with his reliance on getting the tap from falling back into aggressive, and uncontrolled wins.
  10. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I don't typically tap early, but I think I have a good gauge for when a person is out of control. There are different levels of that too, when I get a baby blue who is going crazy I typically chill out and defend, but sometimes even they might do something wild that makes me screw it and bail.

    FWIW the round after this guy I rolled with an elite black belt and we went 5 minutes without a submission (he would have won big time on points) so it isn't that I am tapping too soon in general, it is just that sometimes I think it is smart to hit the switch and get off the airplane early.
  11. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I think communication is key here. If someone taps early on you, say 'you tapped early' and they might say 'yeah, sorry', or 'if I didn't tap when I did, I'd have to learn to wipe my ass with my other hand for the next 6-8 weeks'.
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    That's the thing, it was right there for him, he didn't take a moment to think about his leg position to isolate me, but all I was doing was sitting up in 50/50 anyway and watching him crank on my calf, just a moments breath and a readjustment and he probably would have got a legit submission.
  13. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I did have a guy tap early on me the other day, all I did was figure four my hands on the toe hold and he panicked. I told him to chill out and kick out of it and we kept on rolling.

    There's no joy in gaining a tap from a person like that, I would much rather help them feel comfortable and learn from the experience.
  14. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    I haven't done BJJ, but I've met similar guys in Aikido. TBH with that kind I guy I tend to tap, then the moment he releases just sit there and point out the fact he's simply not getting it, then get him to go through the motions slowly and as relaxed as he can with me offering no resistance. There's no point him trying to slam the locks on under pressure if he's not getting the principle of how they work in the first place.
  15. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Are you familiar with the boot or was he just so strong it wouldn't have mattered?
  16. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I use it to buy time when its 'on' I didn't bother with it here since he was off the target enough to nullify his work. I'm not sure how effective it would have been there, but we are only talking 3hrs ago and I don't really feel very much anymore now.
  17. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I'm not sure who your training partners were, but two key points are 8 years training and a purp - these are things that I think factor into how a person can be receptive to instruction.

    I feel that it isn't so much he doesn't know better, but has become overly reliant on this small success (from people tapping) that it makes him comfortable with this social position.
  18. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Well I don't really use it so much but it strikes me as a good frame to keep the lock from snapping on should he adjust.

    And those people are great for working your attacking game and lock flows.
  19. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    True, I was more staring at him in amazement- it is a weird thing being totally calm watching a guy losing his mind trying to submit you. I use the boot rarely myself, though I might if I am not attached to his lapel for momentary help.

    You could say the same for Paul Harris too, I am sure he is great for working your attacking game on :)
  20. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    How do you get to purple belt being a one trick pony, who sucks at his own trick? :confused:

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