No Grappling?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by KSN_Princess, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. KSN_Princess

    KSN_Princess Kuk Sool Won Princess

    Hi Ya'll
    So im just curious as to y schools under the KSWA don't do grappling?
  2. kuksool_keith

    kuksool_keith Valued Member

    to my knowledge some schools do. think it really depends on the instructor. cos its not actuall syllabus training and there is so much to learn in KSW that grappling could be seen as valuable training or teaching time lost. we grapple at our schools.
  3. Shibby!

    Shibby! Valued Member

    Every school i have been to does grappling.

    Maybe you guys are just soft over in the US? :)
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    grappling or crappling?
  5. Shibby!

    Shibby! Valued Member

    Struggle cuddle
  6. KSW_KJN

    KSW_KJN Valued Member

    Whether it's taught directly or not, is secondary and potentially unfortunate. You should be able to execute your same locks and pressure point strikes from the ground. Unfortunately, it is often assumed a student will just do this and it isn't trained. Does this give you ground game? No. You need to play on on the ground in order to learn. Supplement if you need to by either taking some BJJ to get used to executing locks/joint destruction from the ground, or start doing seminars that specialize in ground. The fact is, you will end up on the ground at some point, you just don't want to stay there and roll around with them. Non-sport ground work is brutal.
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Functionally its almost 97.3% the same as sport fighting.
    Tactically it may be different however as circumstances will always dictate tactics.
  8. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Perhaps its just the phrasing non-sport that sets off images of attempted biting and eye gouging in my head, however sport groundwork can be as brutal if you choose to make it. Most sportists don't as they have to train in these situations for much longer than non-sportists. Shaving the face, knuckles under the jaw etc are excruciating and more likely to be able to be applied by a bjj/judo/sambo practioner as they have more knowledge of how to dominate the position.
  9. KSW_KJN

    KSW_KJN Valued Member

    I agree with the functionality completely. Technique is technique. Intent is different.

    Hmmmm....I agree and don't agree. Sport based groundwork is done in a "safe" environment (mat, cage, ring, etc). (Yes, safe is in quotes because it's relative). Self-defense/combat-based groundwork is there with the intent to get up. The chosen/given technique is taken to it's conclusion quickly with the intent to get back up again. In non-sport environments, you have to assume the chucklehead you're rolling with has a buddy or three and sticking around in a top mount, playing the ground-n-pound game can get you really hurt.

    I do agree with these couple of statements. Again, it is why I recommended something like BJJ to the OP as a supplement. Practicing technique, finding/feeling for locks, etc in a "safe" environment is the best practice. However, teaching a student to stay on the ground and roll around with an attacker vs a competitor, is deadly in self-defense/combative situations. Hope that makes sense.
  10. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    I agree with what you're saying. IMHO, from a self defense perspective the ground is viewed as a position of vulnerability, hence the "Get to your feet as soon as possible" mottos, which is correct assuming your ground training is limited and you assume you'll start on the bottom.
    However, I feel this outlook negates the ground as an offensive option. A well executed throw onto any surface quickly followed up with either standing on kneeling ground and pound can quickly incapacitate opponents and with appropriate training in positional dominance, allows you to stand up whenever you please.
  11. KSW_KJN

    KSW_KJN Valued Member

    Agreed completely. Your positioning changes completely with this mindset. This is foundational to defense/combative groundwork. Great post herbo!
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  12. MACA

    MACA Valued Member

    Do you guys think there's a point when adding up more stuff to the already very..........broad curriculum becomes a problem? I mean: punching, kicking, joint locks, throws, sword, fan, sticks (of various sizes and forms), fork, bow and arrow, like 20 more weapons, forms, jumping, acrobatics, sparring (contact, non contact and inbetweens), acupressure, medicine, etc...... all that in what? at best 4 classes of 1 hour a week? plus grappling?
  13. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    I think it's already a problem for many people. One of the reasons I left..

    Teaching a striking and grappling curriculum with adequate contact sparring is hard enough in 3/4 classes a week.
  14. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    For all this massive list... how well would 99% of them fare against someone actually trying to take their head off? Not too well methinks. Keep it simple. Keep it basic. Be functional in more than a single area and train hard.

    In this day and age it seems crazy that people don't train for takedowns or at least train to defend against them.
  15. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    The few I went to did some basic Jujutsu locks and throws but nothing what I would call real grappling.
  16. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Yup that's a lot of info to cover and it's not easy. It takes dedication to become proficient in Kuk Sool. However if one can understand the concept that there is a lot of overlap between each skill set then it becomes much more easy to learn the broad curriculum that Kuk Sool has. It also limits the need to cross train in other arts. To say there is no grappling is not totally accurate, Kuk Sool just doesn't focus on one particular element and it gives the practitioner a holistic approach to MA training.
  17. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Obewan, you say it has a broad curriculum that limits the need to cross train (for me what I have seen of traditional KSW there was no real grappling in it at the time and I feel its a vital tool to have).

    I know it does not focus on anything specific and I still use the odd bit I got from it. It's was an easy style to learn for me BECAUSE I cross trained in Jujutsu with some Aikido and kickboxing beforehand.

    It was due to this I found the language harder to pick up than the techniques themselves.
  18. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    I think we agree then, right? "Because" you cross trained it was easier to learn Kuk Sool. That's because many of the skills in the other arts you studied were transferable to Kuk Sool. So my point is that, stay with me here, like me when I started I was green to MA so learning Kuk Sool gave me a skill set similar to all the other arts you learned, so there is no need for me to cross train.
  19. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Why would you not want to though? There will be people who use similar techniques to you, and others with completely different ones. I know I've become a lot better at leg locks from training with sambists. If you have a specific area of interest then seek out the people who do things differently and find out why! Chances are knowing will enhance your own knowledge And experiences.
  20. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    There is some validity to what you say but there is also some merit in seeing other ways of doing things. For example when I did Kuk Sool as I said the grappling done in the class's was not what I would call REAL grappling it was traditional grappling that you need to be very good to confidently use (the reason I could and can use these is because of well over a decade of doing it across other arts that are more dedicated at it than KSW).

    ALSO what you say would be good if there was no faults with what I did. For me there was a big emphasis on a lot of impractical jump kicks which then I did not like and now I am not a fan off as its risky stuff.

    To imply there is no need for you to cross train and as you said you were green to martial arts before you started. With respect seeing more of martial arts as a whole enables you to find more of what works for you.

    It depends on what your goals are and for me KSW is a long way short of the complete art - hence another reason to cross train.

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