Could be, SsangKall, to be honest I don't recall the full names nor can I attest to the rank changes reported by SeongIn. One ex-KSW master was located in the Dallas metroplex, and I believe there was another master in Austin, although I don't think he was part of KSW, at least not here in the USA (he may have done KS-HKD in Korea, FWIW). I was merely trying to let KS-John know that SeongIn wasn't making a slur about BIL. Since it's now 2010, the timeframe of that stuff happening 20 years ago, may just be a ballpark figure on SeongIn's part (which is about when BIL moved to TX, IIRC, and why KS-John most likely got suspicious). I believe the things mentioned by SeongIn occurred in the mid-1980's (prior to the arrival of BIL in TX), if that helps pin it down any better.
I'm not referring to BIL. And, i'm not making a slur about anyone which is why I specifically chose not to cite anyone's name. Its what happened that is relevent to what I was discussing; not who was the beneficiary of what happened.
Duly noted. :bow1: Seeing as how besides LEE the other common surnames in korean are PARK & KIM, I find it rather odd that the first few kuk-sool masters in TX were all named LEE (AFAIK, and all unrelated to one another as well). I wasn't trying to say that you (SeongIn) were insinuating anything bad about any of these masters, FWIW. Nor do I see anything wrong in describing what happened with any fast-track promotions (past or present). Personally, I think the glass ceiling concept being applied nowadays is ridiculous, and I've already expressed my thoughts along these lines WRT a striking similarity to pyramid schemes. Don't get me wrong, minimal TIG restrictions aren't such a bad idea, but a mathematical progression (i.e. adding an extra year for each successive dan grade) is uncalled for. If the most recent guidelines for rank advancement in the WKSA weren't changed after the institution of the franchise stuff, then the aforementioned mathematical progression for TIG requirements has been dropped. I believe it's now a 2-year minimum plus 2 years of quarterly testing, which means one could feasibly promote within 4 years since their last promotion. Not as short as some of the fast-track promotions of the past, but not a terribly bad timetable IMO (even for "rank-chasers" LOL).
SeongIn , and Uk, Thanks for you responces. I understand you point on not naming names, ( a good one at that ) and I never thought It was BIL, ( I Know his history beter than that. )
Yeah right. OTOH, it is a possibility that you may believe this to be true despite the anti-WKSA rhetoric you post.:dunno: Now I'm getting bored with this discussion. The WKSA folks lurking saw the disparaging of WKSA for what it was...and just like he has a right to his opinion, so does everyone else. But if you feel he needs you to defend him...well, so be it. Do you think this sort of thing was the NORM or was this sort of thing an outlier? Do you think there were extenuating circumstances or was there something else going on? Was this person held at 5th dahn for an extraordinarily long period of time and advanced quickly to make up for a slight? Dunno. What would you say if something similar happened recently and not 20 years ago? According to your post...this particular person went from 5th dahn to 7th dahn in a 2 year span. Isn't there a NKMAA 5th dahn who recently promoted but was just promoted to 4th dahn last year and was a 3rd dahn in 2008? This person also moved 2 ranks in 2 years....and to Master rank in 1 year. Perhaps there were extenuating circumstances? But it only goes to show that the WKSA is not the only group with promotion outliers... while some promotions may raise an eye....most are very well deserved...which cannot be said about everyone else. What do you think of promoting every year?
VM, I simply stated a specific thing that happend 20 something years ago. Since this was 20 something years ago, that is "history" by definition. The posting cited just one example in which "5-10 years time in rank" was not observed. As for the circustance, I am aware of what the circumstance was. But, it did not detract from the facts presented so it was not necessary to include it. As to what I think, it does not matter as I was not voicing an opinion. I was making a statement of what occurred as a basis for my sentence topic being a history of promotion without regard to time in rank. As to this not being the only organization to do this, again it does not matter since I was not passing judgement on what occurred. Therefore, I need not defend it in light of what other organizations may or may not do. All I have done was to make a statement and provide a supporting fact as evidence and following with a recommendation. I have left my emotions out of my posting entirely. Perhaps you would be best served to do the same. If not, it matters not. I'm at peace.
Haven't you heard, SeongIn? Unless you resort to ad-hom attacks or using the copy/paste function, you won't qualify for making a "snappy comeback." Please get with the program.
Your use of the "sarcastic" smiley makes me suspicious that this question isn't wholly sincere. If you care to rephrase or restate it, then perhaps I could render a more satisfactory answer.
I find a smidgeon of hypocrisy coming from certain quarters on these forums. People who, on the one hand, shout loud and long about how others on here knock the WKSA at every opportunity, and yet they themselves, by the very fact that they admit to cross-training in other arts, are surely just as guilty of at least showing disrespect to the WKSA by doing so. Or am I missing something here?
maybe they were 6 dans in another kshkd org and are relearning things. maybe they are savants. maybe they are wealthy. these are only three of the possible reasons they promoted so quickly. these are all valid reasons that have caused years to be skipped in waiting to test. not only are they valid, i suggest it. we had a student switch from a yang chun shik school when he was a 2nd dan, but my instructor bumped him down to dan bo nim. was it fair? its his organizarion. thankfully, this student loved our ways.
Maybe, jsut maybe, some of the people who rise through the ranks quickly do so because they work very hard to learn the material and get to the required standard? IDK how it works in the USA but over here you can learn to drive several different ways. EG you COULD take just one leson every two weeks and do no extra practise in which case it might take you a year or two to pass your test, exspecially if you were not a "natural" driver. On the other hand you may well take to the skill more quickly than others plus you could take a two week intensive course where you work 8 to 10 hours a day and take your test at the end of it. If both passed their test, would the first candidate deserve to drive any more than the second? Someone else may just take a few lessons, then practise on their own for a year or two. Then they may take a course of say, 10 lessons and pass their test. To the people who don't know about their previous experience, it would apear thhat they learnt very quickly, but does that mean they don't deserve their licence?
I think the bit we keep getting stuck on is the use of the word "deserve" and how each person's basis for comparison varies. Best Wishes, Bruce
Despite the wonderful analogy you provided in your post (#513) WRT driving licenses, I think it pertinent to reflect back on a comment made earlier in this thread (namely, post #170): And BTW, I think Bruce nailed it with his comment in post #514. :thinking:
...and may I ask whether we are actually going to DO something about this or is it the intention of people to simply continue to masturbate this stuff to death. Its not that I actually expect someone....say V-M... to do anything other than talk....... but is anyone else interested in doing something? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
Hello Bruce: Instead of beating the bushes in the hope someone else will join me, I decided to do whatever I could within my association while I am still alive. No doubt that both of us will look at the under side of grass long before we find people who will actually do more than talk. FWIW, I hear from reliable sources that some of the Mappers who participated in the BB test I held in conjunction with the event have now implemented a MUCH more demanding test of their own. Glad to see more folks "up the ante" to make a black belt test more than a business decision to see who is "worthy". Rudy
well some people chose to start their own schools/kwan. this allows for at least their standards to be enforced. it is far too late to get every tkma school together on the same page. plus, the old-boy system is so infused into korean culture that to take it away from tkma would be to take away what little korean-ness they actually preserve.
Okay...quick question: I was reading (or re-reading) KSW-KJN's post that Unknown put up, and I got to ask...who is KSW-KJN talking about when saying CKJN Lee? And that one of his sisters is married to Grand Master Seo and the other married to KJN Harmon. I'm a little lost on that. If he means Master Byung In Lee then I'm really lost... Hey Bruce...all we can do is talk because, as SsangKall pointed out, there is no way we're gonna unite everyone. Everyone was suppose to be part of the Kuk Sool Hap Hyul Hwe, and that fell apart. Everyone was suppose to be part of the Korea KIDO Association, and now there are 12 different break offs per each style. Everyone, at this point, is on a little life raft in the middle of nowhere doing what they can to survive. Be it making new 5th Dahn certificates at your local copy store or getting them from an association that has 2 schools total. The only thing we can do is practice and try to be better for ourselves or students. Example: my tests have always been hard and I'm proud of that fact. Even for color belt, your gonna earn it and testing is usually 4 -5 hours for anything under Brown Black and for Black Belt...well, pack a sleeping bag. LOL Now, I'm adding in the Muye Dobo Tong Ji material as well for my higher ranks. I'm teaching more Korean based grappling out of the SahDo MuSool arts at higher rank levels as well. Its my goal to make my school have every Korean Art I can get my hands on. And with that, I'm doing the best I can so my students learn the best they can and as much as they can. No one wants to be part of an association anymore, and I use to be the hyper active nutter bouncing around thinking "Man, every one wants an association, they just don't know how to do it!!!" and I got my legs sweeped and landed hard on the fact that everyone just wants to be top dog and there are few people that put in the work to make a better association. But then...why dont' THOSE people that do have those better and kinder associations join together to make one association that oversees all other associations...? Who knows. I don't. And I dont' care. I'm gonna run my school and train till I croak.
