At least we agree on one thing VM, and it isn't always a case of needing to look too close to recognise that worthwhile additional material either!
And if you look at the way a Silat practitioner applies it, you'll discover even more little insights and nuances of interest and value...
Understood, but I think a bit of clarification might be in order. I thoroughly understand the need to reflect on the basics. Where things diverge is in the need for people to continue to grow. In his later years, my late teacher began to split his weekend seminars so that the first day dealt with basics and the second day was restricted to BB material only. As a result people were exposed to somethings that had not been seen before on a pretty regular basis. This didn't absolve BB of being pro-active in asking questions and delving deeper (a license I probably practiced to a fault) but I like to think that more of my teacher's material managed to be preserved along with his guidance about it. Does this help? Best Wishes, Bruce
I would certainly agree with the idea of going back to basics. But I think it is possible to work on depth and breadth at the same time.. For example at GM Timmerman's recent event we had some presenters who showed a few new (to some) techniques. But surprise surprise....most of them were actually based on techniques which the participants already knew, but they HAD learnt a new way to use them. Others focussed on one or two very basic moves and how to apply them to what we already have. A good example here is the "soft block" (renamed Wallaby block) which GM Booth taught. He showed how this simple technique (well three techniques actually) could lead into virtually any throw or lock that we already knew. For many this helped to make a lot of sense out of techniques which they had learnt years ago. What I am getting at is that when we rehash basics, sometimes we feel like we have learnt a new technique and when we learn a new technique, sometimes we then go back to basics to apply it.
Part of what you are saying does strike a chord with me. I agree that folks who want to evolve and continue to grow...they may need to be more pro-active about their own education and not grow dependent upon a "NOW NOW NOW...spoonfeed me all the material" attitude. I use the whole healing arts component to illustrate my point about being pro-active and adapting to the art. If KS professes to have a genuine healing arts component in their curriculum...it makes sense that folks who are serious about "non-diluted" KS take that aspect seriously. But medicine has evolved and come a long way...so much so that in most countries, practicing the healing arts calls for proper education and licensing. I guess the un-inspired student can ignore the healing arts component altogether or cover it in a half-assed way. They can use some sort of excuse, blaming everyone else but themselves...along the lines of, "well, the healing arts component wasn't taught to me in-depth during the seminars" or "the association has no infrastructure to teach the material properly" or "the association cannot give avenues to a valid license" etc etc etc. That is spoonfeeding mentality. Contrast that to someone like M-D from KSK...who is being proactive about his education and is doing something about it. IMO, if there is a part of KS that is being lost over the years...it is definitely the more esoteric components.
OMG!! I can't believe that VM is accusing the 'Won' of propagating a *spoon-fed* mentality. I'm also confused about the insistence for people to get certification for this or that, when such material is admittedly esoteric. In recent years, if someone was truly curious about this stuff, I've always heard the advice given to them by the *powers that be* was to seek out a reputable school or program which teaches the material in accordance with all the newer governmental restrictions. And as stated earlier (but quickly dismissed or ignored), if certification for the healing arts is to be embraced, then IMO it only makes sense to also get certified for teaching PE, rather than simply "following in your master's footsteps" and teaching MA classes in the same manner that s/he did. Just so you know, I wasn't even addressing this element when discussing the insular attributes of WKSA, but more along the lines of the "clannishness" that Bruce W Sims mentioned. And FWIW, even though my opinion may differ from that of IHS, most reasonable men would not consider someone who had given 20 or more years of unquestioned devotion and loyalty as "just anyone." But any resentment I feel (and occasionally express here on MAP) is not due to "not being shown some technique or other" but is attributable to other actions which I find deplorable.
For an example of how looking at, and perhaps cross-training in, other arts can help one to gain further knowledge and understanding in the martial/fighting arts generally, see the following video clip. At around 2:15 in you'll also see VM's aforementioned 'Ude-Garami' applied with the leg — yes I know, that means it's no longer an 'arm-entanglement', but hopefully you'll understand what I mean! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHBXSkil8Tw"]YouTube - Silat Suffian Bela Diri - Buaya (Crocodile) Groundwork[/ame]
Once again, you try to associate any and all problems you might see in the MA community in general and place the blame on the WKSA. Further, you imply I am propagating your opinion. LOL. Spoonfeeding is a phenomenon that exists in all education settings and at every level. Whatever problems that exist in the Won...it is not exclusive to it. All large organizations have pros and cons. But continuing to attribute problems that are generally everywhere and linking them to WKSA alone speaks volumes. As for getting some sort of PE certification...if you truly want anyone with a PE certification...someone with ballet or aerobics or weight-training that happens to do the adapted, instructional and biomechanical aspect etc etc etc...come in and dictate what is taught in your MA school...that is your opinion. LOL. Are you saying the nice lady at my local gym teaching Yoga should be dictating how you run your MA school just because she has multiple degrees and certifications in PE? Meanwhile, certification for the healing arts is absolutely crucial IMO. A person with an MD (or DO or RN or DC etc etc etc) and proper certification should absolutely be able to dictate how medicine is run...for obvious safety reasons! That is certainly only your POV. IHS is not a perfect man...and neither is anyone else. But being that he is an association head, people may attribute an unreasonable standard to him. Meanwhile, the actions of those who left might have been even more deplorable.
My own personal experience has been that people who remain with an organization tend to give their leadership the "benefit of a doubt" while outsiders tend to hold strongly---perhaps inflexibly-- to applying a more stringent standard. Not so very long ago, one of the Hapkido leaders had an event where people were promoted to inordinately high levels. Apparently there was a compensatory fee associated with these promotions of similarly extraordinary size. People within that individual's organization fell over themselves rationalizing the gesture. Those outside of that particular organization simply saw it as another case of selling rank. Both sides made good cases and I couldn't count either side completely right or completely wrong. I mention this for two reasons. One reason is that I can see the same dynamic possibly being acted out here with the KS people. The other reason is that you cannot believe how very tired I get of Korean arts being rife with this very sort of dynamic. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
Wrong. Any complaints I have stated in the past are due to scrutinizing only one organization, not the entire MA community. FWIW Sorry if I misunderstood. I genuinely thought you were bashing your beloved WKSA for "spoon-feeding" material. Ergo the tone of disbelief. Furthermore, I never offered an opinion about whether WKSA drip feeds info or not, just to set the record straight about how I perceive that particular MA organization. And what sort of nonsense are you jabbering on about WRT aerobics or yoga instructors? Earning a teacher's certificate in PE would not require (or allow) any of those people you mentioned to dictate anything about the way a MA instructor chooses to run his business. It would mean that educational standards are being abided by, in addition to learning the basics WRT anatomy & physiology. So I'm still waiting for some solid reasons why such certification would be "out of the question" if also requiring the other certs you proposed. If the person (meaning a MA instructor) is going to actively practice such arts and take in the general public as clients/patients, then I agree - in fact, anyone runs the risk of imprisonment if caught practicing without said licenses. OTOH, if the idea is simply to learn about certain aspects of medicine which are loosely connected to TMA, then I'm not totally convinced that REQUIRING certification is absolutely necessary. Simply learning about such stuff in depth when compared to the average long-term MA practitioner, may be sufficient in carrying on the sprit of the TMA. Again, you're coming out of left field with this statement. I never mentioned anything about him being perfect nor imperfect. Assuming his reasoning was similar to that used by you when making your statement in post #480 (BTW I did preface my statement with the caveat that he & I may have different POV), I was merely saying that it seemed unreasonable to regard anyone who had demonstrated their loyalty, time & time again, in such a casual fashion. My mention of "deplorable actions" was directed not at IHS personally, but rather at the WKSA as a corporate entity. And while IHS may be the acting CEO, I suspect that many of the things I find so deplorable were not decided upon by him alone. FWIW
That is abundantly clear. While every organization has problems, you do scrutinize only one organization. You might not think so but that makes you clearly anti-WKSA. Wrong. Saying that there is spoonfeeding in all areas of education is not bashing WKSA alone...its not really bashing. It is a component that opposes pro-active evolution of an art...along the lines Bruce and I were discussing (him being more into proper research and historical accuracy and me more into development of established systems) Disparaging the WKSA and how KS is diluted is bashing. You're the one who brought up PE certification. So why don't you bother to look up some current educational trends that entails? Admittedly, other countries may have a different system...but in the US, much of the coursework falls into 3 categories I mentioned: 1) adapted, 2) instructional and 3) biomechanical. Within each group, people can be educated about anatomy/physiology, health/fitness, teaching methods, nutrition, education technology etc etc etc. Do you deny any of this? So forcing MA instructors to be under the auspices of PE certification standards absolutely does force an awkward employment dynamic in which properly credentialed Yoga folks can control what MA people do. I'm not a big fan of this idea at all. A quick look at the US Dept of Labor stats shows, however, that systems in place now under NBPTS or APENS allows for this possibility. Why and how is this happening? Perhaps the system is broke or inefficient...who knows? Putting it more concretely...take a quick look at a local high school. Physical education and certification falls under a teachers certification system in the US (for public schools, not for privates in all States). A principal of a school, who may have been a history teacher originally...can actually be the boss of a biology teacher in that same school! This is why I contrast this type of credentialing with medical credentialing. Having a group of medical personnel dictate safe policy for everyone in the healing arts is, IMO, necessary. Whereas having an aerobics or yoga instructor dictating MA policy to a MA instructor simply due to the current PE credentialing structure is not necessary IMO. This very idea has been recently addressed with folks like M-D and Obewan....in that a MA instructor absolutely does not need to get credentialed in the healing arts as a general rule. I agree that learning some stuff on the side might be sufficient. But with that, we thought perhaps there should be a rank-ceiling. But then, there came a discussion about advancing the art and evolving the art. What can people do? What is out there? What is in the spirit of the TMA you are involved in? The conclusion we had was that perhaps people can make 5th dahn without proper healing arts credentialing...and realistically, only memorize some relevant things on a cursory level. But to make 6th dahn and up...we thought perhaps that there should be "more" to the rank and title...perhaps that these folks should be advancing parts of the art in their own way. And though it is time consuming...getting a deeper knowledge of the healing arts and being able to practice it with proper credentials was a viable idea. In essence, we were putting forth a possible solution to rank-chasing and possible improvement of material at the upper dahn ranks. A common complaint is that new material at the highest levels is sparse or they may be "hidden" and not be taught. What I suspect is that folks want to lament about it but when push comes to shove...and actual stringent requirements are set in place, a backlash might ensue. And then there are folks who might agree with some of it in principle but may be looking for shortcuts to buck the system...like getting something like EMT certification in 2 weeks...while others are spending 8+ years (undergrad plus grad/prof school) to fulfill the spirit of the requirement. FWIW, this idea of advancing to the upper echelons in rank via education or putting forth a thesis or dissertation or publications or whatever the parent org deems worthy...is not a new idea.
i like the idea of dissertations and higher education for tma. i know tkd is not ks, but at least the whole dissertation thing is being used as a requirement for the kta (korea tkd association). after my instructor wrote his, he flew to korea and bring his ideas for the future of kma to the table AND physically test (although i'm sure they stopped him after the whiskey bottle break or even him side kicking straight to the sky at 65y.o.) for his 9th dan.
WKSA has a history of promoting without regard to time in rank etc. Without being specific and if memory is correct, there was a korean 5th dan who got on the plane from california and landed in texas as 6th dan and then 2 years later he was 7th dan. Not long after, he broke away and formed is own art and organization and claimed 10th dan. So, don't think that 5-10 years time in rank is the "norm" to or between master ranks since it depends on the politics at the time. BTW, this occured some 20 years ago.
It might help your point, ( at least for me ) if you gave names and aprox. dates for such statements! I don't absalutely doubt your clame just looking for facts.
Didn't several early masters go through some special masters training course with IHS and get their paldan in just several years in the early days?
in the early years sung sam jo took many a private lessons (and donated mucho dinero) and in seon seo gave him an eighth dan. back in the day the only others either were suh's by blood or marriage or belonged to the kido-hae/some relevant org/organization growing situation(ala he-young kim and the usa connection). i know of three sam dans that came to the usa as o dans and that is simply the way it goes. the time was crucial to the growth of ks in the world, and these guys were willing to open schools. we can only move forward with our ideals of what a master is.
my understanding is that we had i better in the west when it comes to quality of masters, but things have been moving forward in korea. we got masters combining sibpalgi with our basic material and others combining our basic material with basic mma. i think these are great directions for new masters to look, but knowledge of wei gong theory and accupressure would work well as a capstone course to the instructor course offered at most schools.
Easy, John... BIL wasn't the first KSW master to be sent to TX, so I doubt that SeongIn was referring to your instructor. Besides, BIL only recently broke away from WKSA, and I interpreted SeongIn's remarks as meaning that ALL of those things (including the forming of his own org) as occurring quite some time ago. IIRC and by coincidence, that master's name was also Lee, but no relation to BIL, FWIW.
Of course I only scrutinize one MA organization! After all, I spent the last 20 or so years involved with only one, so it hardly gives me the right to scrutinize others which I have no clue about WRT how they are run or what problems they may have. Furthermore, I am NOT anti-WKSA; I have no active campaign to subvert this organization and merely stating my views about a few problems I perceive, hardly makes me "anti" anything. If problems aren't identified, they can't be fixed. So if anything, I'm helping the WKSA (provided they read the various entries -and not just mine- which point out their shortcomings and take appropriate actions to improve them). Again, I never said that KSW was diluted. I DID defend someone else who chose to voice their OPINION about such a thing, however. This doesn't mean I agree with the statement, just that I think they should be able to express their POV without being personally attacked for doing so. Yeah. Whatever. To be honest, I'm getting bored with this discussion. When and if any of this mandatory credentialing for higher dan ranks is actually instituted by the majority of TKMA orgs, then I can be bothered with giving a damn. A noble quest. Good luck with that.
