Thank you all for your support. This has been quite the journey for me, as far as learning about martial arts. Such a great forum with great people - it is good to hear from other martial artists besides the instructors and students in my school. I had the chance to speak with one of the "older" students at my Tai Chi school, who learned the form from my instructor and another senior instructor (who I great appreciate and miss) about 2 years before I came to the school. He wanted to do the form with us, but told me to do it the way my master showed us. He warned me in advance that he was going to do some moves differently. Well, as I observed him, I noticed that he was doing the form very close to the original Cheng Man Ching form!! It is this form I keep seeing in books, and in videos throughout the internet. Now I asked him why our master changed the form. I didn't really get a straight answer from this older student. But from what I heard him mumbling through his words, my master wanted to emphasize more of the fighting moves and applications throughout the form. I see the similarities and where the form I know strays, but I'm wondering: Is a Tai Chi Instructor allowed to alter the form? Historically, Cheng Man Ching altered the Yang Form to emphasize more of the healing moves, and to make it easy to do for people who are constantly busy and running around. I get that, because not everyone will have time to do a form regularly for 30 minutes (Cheng's form takes 7-10 minutes to complete). But now with my teacher doing his own form, I'm wondering where he got the OK to do the form his way. Should I even be concerned about it?? Personally, I know 2-3 students who've hopped around to other Tai Chi schools, and for their interesting reasons, come back to our school. I will have this conversation with my master the next time I see him, but what is everyone's take on this?? Specifically, instructors who change the form. Thank you for taking the time to read and answer this.
To quote Matt Thornton "This stuff wasn't written in stone by Moses". Is the basic Taiji good? Forms are just a training exercise.
As Sifu Ben says, The shapes don't matter, as much as the core of the boxing. My form is based on what I learnt from my first teacher, but is now quite different, based on what I have learnt from subsequent teachers.
If you don't have faith in your teacher's change, you probably should find yourself another teacher. My teacher had changed 6 moves in the original form. Just because his change, I had more faith in him than other Taiji teachers. Not everybody has deep knowledge to make a good change.
Most of the masters of yore did things differently from each other,including different methods of form practice. Uh,no.There's nothing intrinsically more "healing" about Cheng's method. He was teaching cadets at an academy-a long form wasn't going to be a realistic goal for the time factor. Right, the idea of making it more accessible was part of it,and also the idea of "less is more"-less "postures" to execute means you can do them and all that's entailed in them better sooner.He still taught long form to his disciples,or at least most of them. As mentioned above,if his TC is good it really doesn't matter. MFinn drops in here on occasion.His teacher studied other CMAs before he studied with Cheng and his form is quite,quite unique. But he was really good and knew what he was doing and teaching.That's all that matters.
Thank you all for your replies. I do have a lot of confidence in my master, but I am still compelled to hear other answers from other martial artists. Coming from TKD, where everything was uniform, it is a lot to soak in how dynamic Tai Chi is. I did look up more information, and it's amazing how Tai Chi evolves with every style, every master, etc. I will definitely put more emphasis on the basics and fundamentals, such as breathing, weight distribution, and posture.
Some kung fu masters would argue good kung fu is altering all forms until they're "you", and once you're advanced enough, forms are completely broken to pieces, like alphabet soup, waiting for you write any word you want with the letters.... Like Martial Scrabble, some words are worth more points than others, especially if you hit the triple word spots.
I have no issues with changing a form. However, if it is a very longstanding traditional form, and one changes it quite a bit, I DO think the instructor should let his students know it has been greatly modified from the traditional form. And I don't mean not telling until one has asked. I think it should be mentioned by the instructor as one is being taught the form.
"If you're not angry by all the corrections you get in Tai Chi lessons then you're not getting enough corrections. -B. Little" Thank you for this quote aaradia, because lately, I've been furious.
:topic: Just a little background on that quote. I hope I didn't already post this elswehere on MAP. I sometimes forget what I post on what forum. I just passed a test to be considered "advanced" level in my school- brown fringe. I had my private lesson and my teacher just basically tore everything I did apart that day. You ever have one of those lessons? I felt horrible for a few days afterwards, like I didn't deserve to be considered a brown fringe. I mean, how could an advanced level student have so many things wrong with their form? I was so mad and disappointed in myself! I was talking to one of the most advanced level TCC instructors about this - not my instructor but another one who helped me a lot at the school. He told me that quote. And he said it should be like this always- even at advanced levels because there is ALWAYS room for improvement! It totally changed my perspective and my attitude! That simple line was one of those truly profound moments that changes ones outlook in their entire training! I asked him if I could use that quote and he gave me permission. It has been my Martial Arts Forum Quote ever since! It really applies to any MA style, but the quote came talking about TCC specifically. So there you have it. Glad you like it. :hat:
I always like your posts aaradia, but I don't like that quote in your signature! To my mind, anger is totally counter-productive. We should welcome corrections because they make us better, but as you said above, there is always room for improvement....so do we really want to be permanently angry?
Fair enough, but I think you take that quote too literally. It isn't about literally staying mad at all. Rather the opposite. The irony being that the point of that quote is what took my anger and disappointment in myself out and turned it to a more positive outlook. And it still does to this day when I find myself getting mad at myself. I tend to be a perfectionist and that quote reminds me to lighten up. How do I explain it? If you get frustrated and angry because you have so much to learn, or aren't doing as well as you want to do, remember that those corrections are what it is actually all about - getting better. If your teacher isn't taking the time to give you a bunch of corrections, you aren't learning as much as you can and they aren't teaching you as much as they could. Remember that when getting frustrated and angry at oneself, this IS the process and journey of martial arts. Stop being down on yourself. Accept the process. It would probably help if you knew the person who gave me that quote. He has a funny quippy sense of humor. I like that it summed up what I am trying to explain in a simple funny quote.
Thanks for taking the trouble to explain it. I think I have a better idea of what you mean now! I suppose I've got a more relaxed attitude towards the form than I used to have. I've seen it change because different Masters have taught it differently, with different emphasis, but it's still the same form. So we can choose to strive to do it just like Master 'B' does it, or we can carry on doing it just like Master 'A' used to do it. To me, the important thing really is that we grasp the fundamentals.
One day someone asked me, "In SC 'diagonal pull', Why do you step forward when you pull your opponent's arms back?" [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKRkrv9L5m0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKRkrv9L5m0[/ame] Another day, another person also asked me, "In Taiji 'pull/roll back', why do you keep your feet stationary when you pull your opponent's arm back?" [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Jq1k5WlW0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Jq1k5WlW0[/ame] Since my teacher created that SC form, I know exactly the right answer. the answer is it was designed for beginner easy of learning. During the beginner level training stage, you only teach your students the upper body move. Later on, you add in the foot work along with the leg move. I don't know the originall Taiji form creator's intention. But I assume that person might create his Taiji form a certain way for the same reason. When your opponent pushes you, you pull your opponent's arm back, you should - spin your body (to move yourself to be out of your opponent's movig path), - use your leg/foot to spring/block one of his legs, and - lead him into the emptiness (give him plenty of space to fall). The following clip is the complete "diagonal pull". [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRGLxOHjIkU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRGLxOHjIkU[/ame] The original form may be designed - for the beginer easy to learn. - to hide certain detail. - because the form creator's linited knowledge. If you use your form to train, you will never be able to add your foot work (such as the wheeling step), and your leg move (such as the leg spring). You may just - treat yourself as a beginner, - be cheated by the form creator, - have wrong faith in the form creator, all your life without even knowing it. The question is not whether you should change your form or not. The question is whether or not you want to truly understand your art. If you can add extra footwork and leg skill into your "ward off, pull back, press forward, push", you are adding more value into your Taiji form (or bring the original value back into Taiji).
As mentioned above,if his TC is good it really doesn't matter. MFinn drops in here on occasion.His teacher studied other CMAs before he studied with Cheng and his form is quite,quite unique. But he was really good and knew what he was doing and teaching.That's all that matters.[/QUOTE] My teacher, Master Yu Cheng Hsiang, studied with CMC in Taiwan and had great respect for his knowledge, especially of Chinese culture and traditions; not so much for his TCC. But he always practiced the CMC form with the Professor exactly as he was teaching it. His own practice and his teaching, on the other hand, reflected his belief that what was passing as TCC was really quite watered down. So his purpose in developing his own version of the 108-posture Yang form was to "go back" to the original "fighting form" purpose of TCC as he saw it. For him, TCC was a higher development of the 5000-year-old fighting traditions of China. It could not be "soft, relaxed", or at least not in the sense of how it was/is being taught nowadays. It had style and power without stiffness; he loved the word "supple" that he thought was truer than the whole soft thing. As for exactitude and precision, he allowed no rounding off or lackadaisical movement; everything was "point and line". Technique was -- and had to be -- individual because of how we are made as unique beings. But the form is the same for everyone. That is how he saw it, may he rest in peace.
