more skill, or more knowledge?

ADAPT OR DIE! that is the filipino way!

 

And he still does not seem to want to answer your post

 

No worries. Sorry it's taken so long to respond. Like Mr. O'Malley here, I just had a daughter. And this is the first time I've been back in the office.

Yeah, but tackling is outside the parameters of basketball. It's really that simple. Punching, on the other hand, is not outside the parameters of FMA. So if training some boxing would enhance your punching, and your punching enhances your FMA (as opposed to not punching well), then boxing enhances FMA. My FMA anyway.

It would be unreasonable of me to try and change your view. There's nothing inherently wrong with your view. I just don't share it. Or rather, I share the view that you should train to use what you have against varying styles. But I also believe that sometimes it really is necessary to box a boxer. Or grapple a grappler. Or whatever.

The argument against doing that has always been that it makes no sense to fight someone on their terms. Why would I fight a boxer at punching range knowing full well how good he must be at it? Well, because part of being good at it is getting and keeping an opponent at your preferred range. I'm not going to be the one making that call all the time.

Just for the sake of discussion though, look at the evolution. Kuntao evolved out of Chinese and Southeast Asian influences. FMA evolved out of native methods, Spanish fencing, and other influences. Many of the notables in FMA that I've known about have drawn from other sources as well. As I mentioned before, GM Cacoy Canete drew from boxing, judo, and karate. Don't you think he works toward earning respect for FMA?

It seems to me that part of what makes this art great is the spirit of pragmatism that surrounds it. People are willing to do what it takes to make it more effective. To make it adaptable. It's a living style. Or set of styles. Tribes fight one another, they adapt. They fight the Spaniards, they adapt to fencing. They fight the Japanese or the Marines, they adapt again. They get a hold of boxing and they see the applicability of it. They see ways to improve FMA through boxing AND boxing through FMA. (Personally, I think that Manny Pacquaio's footwork is a phenomenal example of this.)

I don't begrudge your right to think and teach the way you do. Fire away. But you seem to suggest that people who do it another way are being disrespectful or doing FMA a disservice. And I think that's unfair. What's more, I think it overlooks the continuation today of a time-honoured tradition of adaptation, integration, and application.


Stuart

 

Huh. I typed that whole thing and then realized that Pat had said essentially the same thing. Better. Days ago.

Hrmph.

I think this debate has gotten out of control a bit. If I understand the crux of kuntawman's argument, it's this: FMA doesn't get the respect it deserves when it's treated as an add-on to other styles. For example, it's not a good representation of FMA when a karate school teaches some sinawali drills or disarms to its students, calling it a "weapons component" or even an "arnis class." It's NOT an arnis class. Because it's not covering arnis. It's drawing a drill or two from a much larger pool of knowledge. And even within the martial arts community, FMA generally doesn't get recognized for it's depth and breadth.

If that is the crux, I agree with him. As I expect many of us do. It's the stuff about not mixing this and respecting that which is causing a lot of the debate. Kuntawman cannot, to my mind, convincingly claim that in a fight, 1) his experiences from other styles don't influence his performance (in other words, he's fighting from a mixed background, not exclusively FMA) or 2) that he shifts between one style and another without blurring the lines.

So here's the other crux of his argument (if you can have two cruxs, and if I'm reading this right): People emphasize too much nowadays the necessity of bolting together a hybrid style. It's not necessary to have a boxing coach, a grappling teacher, a muay thai kru, and an eskrima guro. I can agree with that. I don't think it's necessary to build a style list. But I don't really look at it in terms of styles incorporated. I think of it as skill sets. It's like my career. I'm an editor (God have mercy on my soul). And just because I've taken a bunch of classes on HTML, that doesn't make me a web designer. It makes me an editor with a decent understanding of web design and coding. One informs the other. So while I'll never consider myself a kickboxer, taekwondoka, eskrimador, thai boxer, JKDer, boxer, AND fencer, each of those things has been instrumental in my thinking and training.

As Pat pointed out, no style is pure. Every style has influences. And every style has influence on something else. I don't see that process as a weakness. I see it as our biggest strength.


Stuart

 

Well said Staurt, I could not have said it better myself, and you are right and thekuntaoman does not sem to realise it, we do in general agree with him, but we disagree with the fact that the FMA is pure and should not be influenced by other arts, he himself admits that he teaches an FMA that has been heavily influenced by Chinese MA and all I am asking him to to as I keep saying, don't try to preach to the converted and if you are you have to first practice what you preach.

Anyway, hope al is well with you, your family and of course your new addition, hopefully she is keeping you awake like my daughter is:Angel: .

regards

Pat

 

She certainly is, my friend. Cheers!

As a new father aside (and an initially reluctant new father at that), she's pretty amazing. I'm going to try very hard not to 1) derail this thread (because it's gold) and 2) sound like a gushing new dad. But she's magic.


Stuart

 

diego, gusto kong maintidihan kong ano ang tanong mo...

if you are saying we got the philippine martial arts today because it is always evolving, i agree. we do evolve and we should, we also absorb into our arts anything useful that comes our way. i do know cacoy canete and his eskrido, which is made of different styles of fighting, which lots of arnisador do this also, like presas style, comjuka, etc. and in my school we teach more than one style. but what we do different at my place is, the students learn to fight everyone with each one of the styles of kuntaw i teach, until they can use just that style. and they also, learn to use there eskrima against each one of the styles also. i do not teach grappling to fight grapplers, boxing to fight boxers, eskrima to fight eskrimador, etc. for example in our eskrima, we teach stick vs. stick, stick vs. empty hands, stick vs. knife, stick vs. grappling. even if somebody comes to me, and i know he will only study for a short time, this is how i teach my eskrima. and i know this is not how most eskrimadors teach their FMA, instead there is only single stick vs. single stick, double stick vs. double stick, knife vs. knife, jujitsu vs. jujitsu, boxing vs. boxing. so in this method of teaching, your students do not have any ONE technique he can use to fight ALL his opponents.

my kung fu students also fight against my eskrimadors. and so do my kickboxers. and do i have students who study more than one? yes, but only after they been here 3 years or more. i dont want my kung fu people to have to learn kickboxing to fight a kickboxer, because this means there kung fu fighting skill is not complete. now, after he is good at kung fu, i have no problem if he wants to kickbox after that, because i know he has benefit from my kung fu class. what good is the kung fu class if i teach him that he needs kickboxing, eskrima and kuntaw also? yes he knows the weakness in the art, so he builds up his strength of jow ga, to cover that weakness. any smart fighter will do that, because no one is without weakness. but you dont cover a weakness with another weakness, and i consider so-so skill in another art to be, another weakness. its better to make your strength stronger. this is why i never bother to master double sticks and stick-and-knife. i want my single stick to be unbeatable. and i have not met anybody yet to make me want to do sinawali or espada at daga.

now the other posts:
1. i never said FMA is pure with no outside influence. i dont know much history but i know that we have lots of influence.

2. ap oweyn: yes, you are right. everything you said, was, better than i was trying to say. if you are going to do another art, or cross train into FMA, learn it good enough to fight with it. tae kwon do is a laughed at art, but if you learn to fight olympic style, instead of just 2 or 3 kicks, you would really get the benefit of cross training to tkd. is muay thai only good for the round kick, elbow and knee? thats how people teach and learn it. if you learned to fight true muay thai, instead of take some seminars, your fighting skill will benefit from your muay thai knowledge. and most of the arnis i see in my city, is, "shopping center TKD fhillipine sticks".

3. i like kung fu movies where the hero fights with praying mantis style, then changes up to fight eagle style, then finished the enemy with drunken style. but i dont do that. when i fight, anything will come out that is best for that fight. when i talk about mixing skills, i am saying you learn to box good, learn to kick good, learn to wrestle good, then put it together. its better than good at boxing, but learn a few kicks and holds and take down, because you only "know" techniques, but cant "do" them effectively.

4. "But I also believe that sometimes it really is necessary to box a boxer. Or grapple a grappler. Or whatever."
okay, if you are a grappler and you cant get your man down, then you box the boxer, i agree. i am the kind of guy who will develop my boxing to stop the grappler from taking me down. i want to be the grapplers nightmare to fight, and this is why i spend more time sparring grapplers and other styles instead of doing what they do. but you know martial artist are very scary people, they always say "what if?" i am not a what-if person, i train and train and train, instead of worry about what style my opponent is using. what if you learn everything under the sun, and then you meet an opponent who does an art you never seen before, or if he has a gun? it is more important to better at your art than your opponent is at his art, than to learn a little of his art, and everybody elses art. because if your specialty wont beat him, you know your add-on art wont either, he is just the superior fighter.

5. But you seem to suggest that people who do it another way are being disrespectful or doing FMA a disservice. And I think that's unfair.
that is not my intention. it is unfair. but i believe that teachers who teach arnis as add-on art, and is good for nothing but sticks and coordination do our arts a disservice. and this is how i see lots of FMA being given.

6. ADAPT OR DIE! that is the filipino way!
i agree. but i dont believe "adapt" means you have to "adopt"

7. okay, i cant find it, but somebody asked, why not take in the technique that defeat you? the technique or the style did not beat you, the man beat you. you train harder, find out how you lost that fight, then evolve your style to beat that guy (or style) if you see him again. one example, mike tyson use to be a patient but exploding fighter. he slip, weaved and when the opening came up, he takes his man out. after kevin rooney and teddy atlas left, mike became more aggressive, because his stupid new trainers, believed that mikes stength is his power but they did not see that his weakness is reach. so they trained him to take out his opponents fast. any fighter or trainer could see it. but mike, was not smart enough to keep the lessons from d'amato, rooney and atlas, he took this new style, and it does not work for him, so the only way he wins fights, is to fight pancakes.

btw, tyson used to take the aggressive strategy, but only when he is in the ring with a runner that does not fight back.

8. did i miss anybody? if i did, tell them i'm sorry. its been a long day. i'm a little tired....

 

Okay. Something clicked here. I'm a believer in "isolated sparring drills." For example, one person can do whatever they like. And the other person can use the jab. It's a way of concentrating on one thing. So you can learn to use the jab for various things. Establishing a rhythm. Finding your range. Creating openings. And, hopefully, actually hitting your opponent.

What you're talking about is essentially that same concept, but on a larger scale. Yeah? You're not adverse to crosstraining. You just want people to isolate one thing for long enough to learn its versatility before tacking onto it. Am I close?

Good point. Muay thai is more than just a good round kick, knee, or elbow. Same goes for arnis, taekwondo, or anything else. I think we're starting to speak the same language here.

That's a point I can competely get behind.

We're getting there mate. We're getting there.


Stuart

 

Hey, thekuntawman, that is the first time I totally agree with you, like I said before in an ealier post, I think maybe we are misunderstanding you by the way you are trying to get your point across. Yes you do have to learn an art totally in order to be able to use it properly and yes I also hate people who use Arnis as an add on skill, but in the long run these add on schools will benafit those of us that trainArnis properly, for one or two students will venture out from the add on school and see a real instructor in action and low and behold they will see what they have been taught is not complete, before we know it a good majority of the add on school student will flock to real Arnis schools.

Maybe you need to word your message diffirently, Stuart seems to have also got the same impression and seems to be doing a great job translating what he thinks you mean.

Best regards


Pat

 

Can we have this in english please

ToS 4.2 Language:
MAP is an English speaking forum. Please take the time to post in plain, legible English.

 

"Diego, I just want to be certain that I know what you're talking (asking?) about..." (How's my translation? Shootodog)

Though, after reading the post, I'm not sure why the first sentence was addressed to me.

 

Thanks Diego

 

sorry diego, i thought the questions was from you. i meant shootodog.

i wanted to understand his question, because i thought i did answer it already.

 

actaully you haven't. but that's ok. my philisophy has always been: whatever floats your boat!

 

all hail stuart! he's a dad!

 

My first "All hail." Sweet!

 

Might as well Keep the momentum going then

all hail stuart! he's a dad!all hail stuart! he's a dad!all hail stuart! he's a dad!all hail stuart! he's a dad!all hail stuart! he's a dad!all hail stuart! he's a dad!all hail stuart! he's a dad!all hail stuart! he's a dad!

Congrats bud

 

diego, gusto kong maintidihan kong ano ang tanong mo...

which translates to: diego, i want to understand i the question...

i guess he meant was: diego, gusto kong maintidihan kung ano ang tanong mo...

which translates to: diego, i want to understand what your question means...

i'm such a pedantic pri...prince

diego: your translation is great!

stuart: all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man! all hail stuart! it takes a man to make a man!

 

Thanks gang! I'll pass along all the well wishes to my little future eskrimador.

 

Got the little one a stick yet All Hail Stuart he's a Dad.
Hey I know how you feel, a little eskrimador and a Hail, oh we lucky few.

Bet yours keeps you awake like mine does too.

well done mate, and hope you good lady has finally got over the hard work she had to put in, send her my regards.

Hey Yoda we should have that bowing thingy that is on the chat page, would make it a lot easier to hail someone. And maybe we could have a hijacker one too for those occasional you know whats.

Regards

Pat