I'm sure it did. Training in what I still consider to have been a very good Aikido club for 7 years made a tremendous difference to the way I viewed my Karate Kata. I consider myself very lucky to have had the opportunity to train with people like Pierre Chassang who came into Aikido from a Resistance and bodyguard background. These days my fundamental principles are: HAOV - designed to counter known habitual acts of violence. Predictable Response - working from the knowledge of what both we and the attacker are likely to do instinctively from any given situation. This includes flinching upon an initial attack. Initiative - aiming to take this and keep this until we are safe and the threat is gone. Redundancy - training back ups in all our techniques in case any one move fails. Low Maintenance - techniques are designed to be simple and easy to learn and maintain. Adrenaline Tolerant - Simple movements and working with natural flinch responses ensures our techniques work under pressure. Unbalancing - aiming to create an advantage by disrupting the balance of our attacker at every opportunity. Transferable Skills - I'd would rather have one technique that can work against ten attacks than ten techniques that can work against one attack. Multiplicity - The individual movements drilled are designed to be used in many ways from multiple positions. Ballistic response - I use many simple grappling locks/breaks and holds and maneuvers, but these all stem from ballistic set ups. I focus primarily on ballistic responses to aggressive behaviour. Multi-range - I train techniques for close range, medium range, long range and the ground. The order of priority of these techniques in my syllabus is as given here. Pressure Points: These don’t always work, but they can give an advantage. I focus on target areas that will give a biomechanical response whether or not the target is pressure point responsive or not. Pressure points are only the icing on our cake, the principles above form the cake.
Exactly too all of the points you have made. My main attitude to aikido is that the attacker must be made to spin,circle or spiral around the aikidoka NOT THE OPPOSITE therefor the techniques should be few and addaptable to many circumstances. ALL of the techniques are the completion of the conflict AFTER the initial unbalancing of the attacker. One of my first teachers was Tamura shihan who I am sure Mr Chassang must have trained with at one time or another, The other, my main teacher for whom I was uke for the ten years when he was in britain was Chiba shihan.I have enjoyed our exchanges and apologise if I have taken the thread away from it's initial point. respectfully koyo.
Not at all. It was good to have someone with your level of Aiki experience backing up what I'd said in relation to Aiki. Pierre was and is Tamura's student - he started Aikido with Abe in '52. As you say though - back to the thread.
That's a good list. Sort of a goal of where techniques need be in order to be practical. I'm of the opinion that any technique can be good so long as it starts with the demonstation of good principles. However, the technique itself is not as important as having practical application. Practical application has only one criteria, that is works when it needs to. I see practical application in martial arts as the extension of principles that a person executes fluidly and at an instinctive level (based on the natural response to protect one's self). Predictable Response - working from the knowledge of what both we and the attacker are likely to do instinctively from any given situation. This includes flinching upon an initial attack. Ballistic response - I use many simple grappling locks/breaks and holds and maneuvers, but these all stem from ballistic set ups. I focus primarily on ballistic responses to aggressive behaviour. As a side note, I think the above two concepts need to both be present. Some applications I have trained in depend heavily on what is called "signalling". For instance a hand or punch to the face of uke to get them to react. Signalling can work well, but I learned that police martial arts derived from Shinobi removed signalling from their techniques because signalling did not work well in low-light conditions or if the enemy was under the influence of substances (drugs or alchohol). Instead, signalling was replaced with "ballistic" atemi. So instead of just striking to the face to get a reaction from uke, the strike is through the face, so even if you don't get them to flinch or react, you hit them and get the desired reaction that way. I always appreciate your comments in any thread. It is interesting to me that I can take what you and jwtitchen say and try to apply it to HOW technique feels when I uke. The professor that shows me bunkai to these kata movements has over thirty years in Tai Chi. On kote gaeshi immediately on contact I feel like I'm striking air (void). My body turns so I'm unbalanced off the edge of my foot with my posture broken at the hips -- noting that I turn while off balance, he does not move except what is necessary to not get hit. I don't feel a twisting of my wrist at all, but I feel a sharp pain a split second later like my wrist was breaking, I notice at this time that my fingers are pointing at my face already. He also traps my elbow just above his hip against his body. This prevents me from raising my elbow and I think it facilitates the rotation of my forearm.
I train techniques usually three ways now. This would apply to bunkai also. 1. Mechanical ---> Technical: At first just the gross (primative) movements in a mechanical manner. As students understand the technique more, then it becomes more important to be more detailed on a technical level (such as aiming for the correct pressure points with the right weapon). In almost all accounts, when I describe bunkai it is at the technical level. 2. Application ---> Creative: The same technique is then practiced through training against progressive resistance. The resistance (movement, etc.) is increased over time on a sliding scale based on what is appropriate for the students. Students find that the technical details change because they also have to incorporate the skills of good timing, control of distance, and positioning. 3. Continuous ---> Fluid: This is a level where the encounter is continous to a point where it is only stopped on a submission, pin, or disengagement. It is sort of like sparring but a little more restricted (not quite free form, there are limits to what type of attacks can be used in the exercise). Students find that techniques are not as important as principles. For instance, not getting hit, maintaining your posture/balance when attacking and unbalancing the enemy are all more important than accomplishing a technique as the technique will likely fail if the previous principles are not first applied.
I use a similar sort of system, but I do 1,3,2. I also have a separate progressive system underlaying all drills: Level 1: The Basic Drill. Level 2: The Basic Drill with verbal aggression preface. Level 3: The Fluid Drill with continuous attacks from 2 attackers. Level 4: The Fluid Drill with continuous attacks from two attackers and verbal aggression preface. Level 5: Alive Scenario Drill with two attackers and verbal aggression preface. The levels upon which each drill is practiced depends upon what level you are at in training.
I am sure you would be interested in the thread effective technique. I for one would be most interested in your comments, and of course the martial art of aikido threads. regards koyo
For all of us non Japanese karate people, could you describe the move. Looking at the picture I can think of two or three moves this resembles. 1. In Kata, It looks like a hammer fist that slaps the arm.... this is representational of the free hand assisting . 2. It looks similar to the block in Nihanchi (Tekki Shodan) 3. Looks similar to a move in Seiunchin Both 2 and 3 are reinforcements used in close quaters and both are very functional. Seiunchin has several bunkai translations depending on what style you look at. Goju Ryu use it as a pushing block to take the opponent off balance and at the same time trap the arm for an armbar. Some Goju use this, (with the supporting arm under the wrist) as a representation of a wrist lock on an incoming weapon. Isshin ryu, similarily uses this as a reinforced block, alternatives that have been suggested are that you grab the incoming weapon and then perform the technique... using the circular motion of the blocking action to move the opponent off balance. I may be off base here but I study Okinawa styles, and without referencing this particular move to a kata leaves me in the dark, so I am guessing. If I look at the picture submitted of the people doing kobudo... it does not look like a techinique at all but a simple kamae again. The person with the nunchaku is defenitly in a defensive posture. Mike
Hi Mike, It's similar to the move in seiunchin although the version of seiunchin that I know uses more of a forward motion than the way I was thinking of. I was thinking of (e.g.) the first move towards the screen that the chap does in this vid [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbMyxAHUYvo"]YouTube[/ame]
Hi guys Found this picture. Thought it may be of interest. Hidetaka Nishiyama performs Morote Uke (his spelling) regards koyo
When I see it used like that, it suggests that the "reinforcing" arm is just preparing for a follow-up punch from a non-chambered position. I've never seen the reinforcing fist placed that far back (I'd usually place it on the forearm) which further suggests that it can't be contributing to structural strength as the arm would just shear at the elbow.
Now there's a classic example of someone who really does not have a clue. I'm sorry if that's offensive, but come on... if you can't see what's wrong with that... :bang: :cry: I just hope that he's being forced to do that for the book and that he really knows something practical to do with that technique. :Angel:
What may not be clear from the photo is that Nishiyama has intercepted the gyaku stsuke while slipping to the side taking it out of the attacker's centreline and directing it to a kuzushi.The deflection would have struck before the instant of kime.an imediate counter would follow.Saw him once in the early sixties he was Kanazawa and Enoida's senior.I think he went on to establish shotokan in America. regards koyo
Yes - but from whom? He's not really making any good use of his rear arm - in fact if he is actively using it to assist the left uchi uke (biomechanically unsound on the basis of levers and physiologically unsound on the basis of the ehart meridean) then his follow thorugh time is likely to be slower than that of the hip resting fist opposite him. Is Uke supposed ot stand there and just be hit when he also has an good target in front of him? I don't see the value in training the technique this way. Whether he is doing Uchi uke or morote uchi uke he is not in a good position. If he was deflecting exactly the same oi zuki with a right uchi uke/morote uchi uke and was therefore off line with the other guys left hand closeed off I would have fewer objections. Although I would like to point out that I still object to using a receiving technique as a block on the basis that the movement is slower than a natural slap.
Since it was karate I did not want to appear too critical. I myself would never use TWO hand to block ONE attack.Indeed I rarely if ever use blocks depending more on cutting an attack aside or deflecting it.On the thread effective technique I mention attack and defence at the same instant. This is not apparaent in the photo either. regards koyo
Yes, I agree it is good to be critical of many of the basic applications such as shown in the picture. Maybe I'm more open minded, however, as I believe every lesson has a context. It is important to know the context before passing final judgement. I have trained in Goju-ryu and even during my time in the organization, the bunkai changed. I was told at my Blackbelt test to do a different bunkai for some of the first kata. The NEW bunkai was so simple and totally defensive, the one I was originally taught hit pressure points and was offensive as well as defensive. What I have learned and been told by others is that there are different versions of bunkai, some are taught to beginners to help them train the moves with a partner as an excercise. They are not true applications, they are drills. It is the first lesson that the generic moves have many meanings and you MUST KNOW THE CONTEXT to find appropriate and correct meaning.
What you are saying is that you are more of a politician than I am.Sorry rebel you did leave the opening regards koyo
I had similar training, it also invites investigation later on and stops one from being closed to one bunkai.... well said.
