Discussion in 'Silat' started by TomFurman, Nov 29, 2006.
and even hitting pads, is still more alive than alot of training in most tma.
What the hell are talking about???
MMA fighters dont care if they break their opponents bones, or tear ligiments or whatever, they are there to do whatever it takes to win. If the other guy doesnt tap from the submission he will get a broken bone, or get choked out or whatever.
It sounds to me you dont know much about MMA at all.
Full of Something
Actually, it sounds to me as if that, uh, vegemite reference might apply here. They don't expect their opponents to tap? And they are so tough nobody ever taps and all matches end with broken arms or choke-outs?
Funny, the matches I've seen didn't all end that way. Most of them ended with one of the uber-jocks tapping out, or going to the judges for a decision. I would venture to guess that if more than half the bouts ended in broken arms and unconscious fighters, MMA would quickly go the way of the dodo. And AMF.
Are you sitting there telling me that MMA players expect to get maimed or killed every time they enter the ring? That the odds favor that?
If that's the case, then they are all crazy, and anything they have to say must be looked upon askance.
As to why some things are better left out of ring ...
Let's say, for the sake of argument, I have been working on a combination for several years. Not talking magic tenaga dalam-chi-ki chicken-beak-to-the-third-eye hush-hush-top-secret technique, but something real basic -- say, a feint to get an opponent ducking away, and into a short-range power elbow to his temple on the other side. Say that I've done it a thousand times against training partners (with less than full power, of course) and I can make it work, say, fifty percent of the time.
Would you agree that such a thing is possible? Not talking secret techniques at all, anybody could do it if they trained it long enough.
Unless I miss my guess, they wouldn't like it much in the MMA ring.
I miss it, I probably won't surprise anybody with it a second time, but flip a coin, and this time I get heads and I don't miss.
At the least if it lands solidly, it is most likely gonna put his lights out for a while and give the receiver a concussion; at worst, he could get some kind of intercranial hematoma and maybe croak.
Assume for a moment, the rules allowed this strike. I can make it land one out of two, and I'm pretty sure if it does, the guy I tag is out for the count before he hits the floor, or worse.
Doesn't matter how strong you are, some shots are hard to shrug off. How many times you seen boxers take this one from a gloved fist and go down?
Am I justified in using it in the ring? Maybe risk giving my opponent permanent brain damage? Or possibly worse?
On the street, against a guy and his buddy trying to stomp me into goo, yeah.
In the ring?
If you say "Yes," (or if this is allowed under the rules) then we're done talkin' here. Life is too short to waste it on crazy people.
please re read my post (note that i have not edited it at all) at what point (please feel free to quote) where i said that MMA fighters don't expect their opponents to tap.
And that fancy elbow to the temple, as far as i know is legal in many MMAfight organisations (some have taken out elbows altogether, due the cutting nature which can force fights to end prematurly) This is what Matt Thornton is trying to say, if you havent tried it in a fully alive setting, you cannot say it will work 50% of the time. If it worked as well as you think it does, then i'm sure we would have seen it done by now, many times. As for what will happen to your opponent what exactly are you basing that on?
Its a common myth in MA whereby you hear so often "do this and the guys arm will break" "kick here and his knee will snap" unfortunately the reality is that our bodies are far more resiliant than a lot of people think. This is something alot of tma-ists found out in the early ufc's (and yes one of those happened to be a silat practitioner.)
Off course people tap in MMA because if they don't then they can risk a permanent or very serious injury. It is a sport so in a sense you are right most people will go in with a sporting attitude towards their opponent. That being said some fighters while being perfect gentlemen outside the ring are seemingly capable of completely maiming an opponent inside a ring... lookie here for one oft used example (note the use of knees to the face, face stomping of grounding opponents and no gloves in the vale tudo... theres also an elbow or 2 in there): http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=8176458877506855661
Also I don't think that a technique like that you propose would be as deadly or as easy to hit with as you imagine (definitely not gonna be 50/50 for evrytime you throw it!). I would argue that in fact it would be much more difficult to land such an elbow on a trained fighter who is expecting you to throw elbows than joe streetpunk who probably is not and probably doesn't have the conditioning to take the blow if it hits. So in that case it isn't actually be a matter of a technique being 'too deadly' for ring use but more a matter of a technique not being effective enough to beat a trained fighter. To highlight this consider that elbowing is an integral part of top level Thai Boxing and while elbows are very effective for knocking people out they aren't particularly easy to land on people who train to defend against them nor are you guaranteed a knockout if you land one. I have seen many Thai fights were fighters have continued fighting at a lively pace after exchnaging several strong elbow blows (and attempting many more!). I mean flying elbows are also legal in Thai Boxing matches and yet you'll note that people are not constantly dying during bouts.
P.S. I actually don't think you have to go prove your art in the ring if thats not your thing but I think the arguments above are pretty flimsy.
Some years working in the medical field, a fair knowledge of anatomy and physiology, and being a medic at karate-style matches. I expect I have more hands-on medical experience than you.
But I'm wasting my time here, it's like talking to a brick wall. You hear what you want to hear and disregard the rest.
Fine. We're done. Have a nice life.
So, this might explain the sloppy punching when compared to good boxing or MT, and the reliance on grappling? No wonder the '90% of fights go to the ground' myth came about
As for practising strikes against a 'moving' pad and someone that hits back...big deal. Nothing new there whatsoever. I somehow got the impression that there was some revolutionary new training method.
As im sure most of you guys are aware boxers in thailand are allowed to use elbows every bout(including children),contrary to what people may belive the elbow strike does not have a high ko ratio,more often the elbow will cause a cut(something that in the main doesnt bother the thai fighter during the bout) Im not saying the elbow cant cause a ko and never causes a ko just that its not that common,trained fighters(people who fight regular) are very durable and can keep going when the going gets tough.If you also add in the fact that your opponent may be able to take you off your feet up in the air and land you on your back with him on top of you then it would be even more difficult to land the elbow(or most strikes cleanly). Mma fighters(of the good type) tend to use high percentage moves during their bouts,high percentage moves that stop fights or win them fights that is,and even then they dont work due to various reasons such as durability of opponent,injury,sweat or blood etc etc,i guess my main point is just because you have reapeated a move in the gym thousands of times in sparring etc,it doesnt mean said move will work under "real" conditions.
I have a friend that went in the ring to fight a bare knuckle fight in my home town. He had been doing Mixed MA & JKD for years he was kickboxing champ in FL for a long time. Anyhow long story short he was being cocky cause he said he was going to fight a Traditional Karate guy. His reasoning as to why he would win is cause he does "live training" etc and that he had x amount of years training Muay Thai & BJJ, and CSW. Anyhow the Karate Guy hit him once in the Face and cracked and shattered his check and Eye Bone...Fight was OVER.
I am sure hitting pads is good but some of the "old" methods of developing the hits , and conditioning the fist and Palms serve a huge purpose and have been time tested. I felt bad for my friend that this happened to he had to get surgery and metal plates in his face.
I have learned its a bad idea to underestimate people who hit "Air" or trees, makiwara or whatever to develope a mean hit.
Bad punching? I'm curious where you see this bad punching done by StraighBlast gym guys?
Again, Mattt Thornton says himself that he goes into boxing gym, thai gyms, wrsetling clubs and judo dojo's and explains this theory and gets looked at like "Yeah, so what?", he goes into a traditional MA school and 80% of the time people look at him like he's telling them the earth is round.
I can see why people don't like Matt Thyornton, his writing is abrasive and over generalises and SBG doesn't have any guys in the top tier of MMA to the best of my knowledge. He does however explain the concept of aliveness very well.
The fact is, sorry to say this, but you can go onto youtube and within about 30 seconds have a few hundred clips at your fingertips showing people getting elboed and KO'd in ring fights and (More often) not. To the best of my knowledge, most of these peopld don't die, although saying that, I remember Dan Insonanto saying a while back that elbows are still the leading cause of death in Thai bouts in Thailand so you have a point, its just not as dangerous as you think.
Brutal honesty time....
I think Silat has it's place in MA, rightfully.
However, I think a lot of what it teaches would not work in the ring. But it will work outside of it. this is no bad thing, as the training methodologies for both these arenas differ. This is not to say it is inferior to ring arts, but just different.
I think a lot of egos exist in Silat, and this attitude of "Its works, and cos you say it doesnt your wrong" is as prevalent in silat as it is anywhere else. I heard instructors at silat seminars slagging off the need to wax within 6 weeks of an mma fight.... why? Maybe they didnt like something they saw in the fights, maybe they saw a weakness in their own training... who knows.
And Im sure the same is said in mma circles about the skirt wearing freaks of silat ....
Each to their own, put your penis in your pants where it belongs and stop waving it around to see how big it is compared to everyone elses.
Comments above are strictly my own, and not aimed at anyone, but everyone.
So let me get this straight.
Silat can't be used for ring fighting of any kind.
So you couldn't go up against an MMA fighter in the ring and have a chance of beating him with the elements of Silat that the rules allow?
And yet...as soon as that same fighter wips out a blade and comes at you you can now beat him because now it's serious or the real deal?
If you couldn't fight him while both of you were hampered by the same rules how come you can now beat him with neither of you hampered by rules?
I don't see it myself.
It's pretty clear that this is the age old dichotomy (acted upon by Jigaro Kano when he founded Judo and soundly thrashed trad Jiu Jitsu) between the uber-deadly technique that can ONLY ever be practiced slowly or gently or in a pattern versus a technique (with more of a safety margin) that can be drilled against resistance over and over until you can pull it off against someone that is actively trying to stop you.
Some people prefer to train with the off chance that they are developing the ability to be "deadly" while other people prefer the latter evidential method that merely produces the ability to beat people in a fight (although strangely RNCing someone is surely the most surefire way of killing someone there is).
thats not what I said....its FAR from what I said.
Sorry...not aimed at you in particular but merely the prevailing opinions from the silat guys.
ok. got ya.
It can be used.
You could use it within limitations.
But there probably are better ways suited to those limitations/requirements. Horses for courses as they say.
You wouldnt try to put in a nail with a screwdriver - unless it's one of those great dirty big heavy screwdrivers
addressing about why Silat doesn't made an appearance in MMA rings.
Well, neither is Kalaripayat...
nor any Karate schools sent their fighters from their central dojo...
nor Kodokan sent any fighters to MMA
does that mean that all of it is not effective and silly???
Errmm, in order:
2) yes they have, Bas Rutten, Ken Shamrock, Genki Sudo, a ton of others all competed under their rules.
3) Well Aikido is a debate in of itself
4) It's a type of dance, not a fighting art by and the large, if you look though someone has compteted and done very well in MMA, I'll dig out his name and video later if you care about it.
5) Kyokushin and Gene St Pierre ring a bell?
6) Ermm, Fedor has a Judo Dan grade, Karo Parysian is doing werll for himself,. Sakuraba is a former olympic medallist...
this is a week arguement at best.
A Silat guy appeared in the first or second UFC and lost his preliminaries. (not saying anything by it so don't jump on it, just stating the facts)
You really are missing the point like so many other people here. Its not a question of style its a question of training. Look at how differant Kyokushin is to the Karate styles that spawned it, the reason? becauase it trains in a manner which makes you fight in the most efficient manner otherwise you will have your ass kicked. Thats why it doesnt use reverse punch or low block that you see in many other Karate styles, because it just doesnt work as well as other tried and tested methods.
Many people say Kyokushin punches just look like boxing punches, thats no co-incidence, there is a right and a wrong way to punch, which is why any full contact art will use punches that look like boxing, quite simply its the most effective way for the human body to do the job.
well well mr. SeanySeanyBean talks in facts like: boxing is quite simply the most effective way for the human body to do the job (punching).. And what do you have for proof? A Discovery Documentary, or the fact that most people in MMA fight use some sort of a boxing punch (only a bit more sloppy)?
Sure the boxing punch is effective and I admire boxers for their technique and stamina....but what happens when a boxers hits without the gloves? Quite often they break their knuckles or wrists...
It's like you said it's not a question of style but a question of training. If you train for sport, don't expect it to be exactly the same on the streets. One proper punch to the jaw can break it, no matter how tough you are and one wrong punch to for instance an elbow can break the hand. Same goes the other way around. If you train for self-defense or combat things like stamina are less important (a fight won't last 5 minutes) so only that will make you lose in an MMA fight.
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