Martial Arts & Arrogance

It has been from my understanding, that Martial Art serves as a way to anhialate the ego, silence the ignorant superficial mind, and grow to simply be. Now often times in my experiance I have met two extremes of people in martial arts. Those who are Humble, and those who are Arrogant, and tend to consider any form of training that isn`t theres as "stupid." Now perhaps there are times of honesty when someone may see something as stupid, but when its a consistent habit to go around scorning other martial arts for doing Forms, or not using protective gear in training, it seems to become a redundant trait. Whats also very interesting is in my personal experiance, I`ve found that Arrogant people are ussually not the best fighters, a trait I have found prominent in arrogant thought is that they are ussually choppy, and sloppy. And more humble, confident martial artists make simply being around them a rewarding experiance, and builds ones confidence in the valid side of ones art.

A Slight Conclusion- I`ve noticed that as there are a few arrogant minded adults, they are primarily young. Now I am young, and am at times cocky, we all have alittle bit in us, and I have alot to learn. But this is just my comment on it. My personal beliefe is that "Understanding" is a pathway to confidence and humility. Knowing the boundaries (which can be limbitless) of self, and knowing of the perserverance that you will fight till the bitter end.

And that "Ignorance" is a path way to 1. Low Self-esteam. and 2. Arrogance. It seems to me that when ignorant of your ability (lack of training/practice, haven`t delt with sertin situations or tried much.) you are based upon our human nature, made to draw a conclusion. An asumption if you will. For instance if we hear about something and don`t see it, we make a mental picture of it in our minds. Its simply our nature. So based upon your character, you either jump to the conclusion that you aren`t any good (low self-esteam) or that you are incredibly good, and better then most. (arrogance.) Both conclusions flow from "character."

Character- is the conformist attitude in all of us. If your a person who won`t skip down the sidewalk, its probably because your character forbids it. it tells you what is or isn`t exceptable for you to do. Not on a moral level, but on a social level. As bruce Lee said it, "its the guy who stands over you with a stick, beating you with it if you get out of line." This "character" is also called "The Ego." Now if people would 1. Stop taking the character`s/ego`s word for it, or 2. dissolved the eg/character all together, one would no longer have a set assumption, and could discover for him/herself what that person can really do. leading to understanding, which leads to humility and confidence. But it doesn`t seem to be the case with many fellow young people.

They are supreme, and they want you to know it. They remind me of a cave man with the biggest stick, waving it in the air, showing everyone what they have, then the second they feel like the best, they get a huge rock chucked at there head. lol, that sounds harsh but it happends.

1. What is everyone elses take on this?
2. Some advice for the younger guys from the older moe experianced ones?

 

I think you have a fair point. However, I feel I should add that there is a difference between constructive, civil debate and mindless style bashing, and many people try and turn the former into the latter if they are having trouble justifying their own points.

 

Forget Martial Artists....I've found that some people are humble, and some are arrogant. Period. It's the same with Martial Artists, politicians, sportmen, academics, and people who want to argue over how well they drive a car, sew, or bake. Some people think more highly of themselves than they ought.

As far as 'enlightenment', or 'knowledge', or finding a 'path', I just tend to think that people who are secure in what they know are not afraid to admit how much they don't know. Age is just one factor that helps remind us all how little we know.

 

martial arts wont stop someone from being a jackass. And because I know why you made this post- you are still wrong

 

There is nothing in martial arts inherently related to building character, humbleness, enlightenment, etc. NOTHING. The thing that separates martial arts from kickball and crochet is that they're martial, i.e. related to fighting of some sort.

Of course there are many and wonderful benefits that can be gained from training in the martial arts, the same benefits that can be gained in other activites such as athletics. Examine the work ethic, determination, drive, and other fine qualities found on any varsity wrestling team, or a soccer team, for that matter. You can develop fine character attributes in the course of any difficult and determined practice or learning experience.

Putting on a gi, breaking boards, or kicking someone in the head doesn't change the nature of the beast; kendo doesn't teach greater life lessons than olympic fencing, and martial artists shouldn't be held up to a different standard than an equally serious tennis player.

 

Arrogant martial artist=me, well maybe not arrogant, not sure, I'm open to all styles, but not sure, I'm cocky, overconfident, can be an A at times, hmmm, maybe i am arrogant.

 

What the original poster was referring to, which is encouraged or found among practitioners of martial arts, and which leads to a quieter, more focused and productive state of mind, is meditation.

Other things can lead to this also, and martial arts themselves or some of their drills can be similar in effect to meditation. So, for that matter, can walking, crochet, tennis, doing nothing...

We strive to imrove ourselves in martial arts, and if that striving extends to other areas of life you will find a better statae of mind. Some people go into MAs for the right reasons, and some for the wrong. There are some people who think after a year of Karate they can have fun going around beating people up, for that matter. Most arrogant people will not change regardless of age or experience, because they believe they have something to lose by not being arrogant.

There are plenty of senseis who could teach patience, acceptance, purpose, and truth-seeking by example, and those who can perceive these kinds of things are going to improve by virtue of being in the same space.

 

LOOK, MMA is just better mmmkay?

*does about face, trips up while leaving thread, falls on head*

 

Whilst I understand what your actual issue is San Soo, you have to be careful about declaring it something other than a very clear situational explanation.
The idea of having an ego and not having an ego is a political one. To be ruled by one's ego is animalistic. To have no ego is to be no more than the catalyst of manipulation. Taking an extreemist approach to ego is a problem, as good as declaring you either support George W. or you're a Cold War Commie. One should maintain their sense of Self, which means a little ego in the right place is balanced. Certainly you have one yourself, quite large if I may observe.

As far as humble and arrogance are concerned, these are characterisations. Many pedophiles are quite humble indeed, cowering at the examination of their actions for which they can offer no suitable justification. Are they better people than the parents who arrogantly wish to decide the manner in which they are to be "re-educated" along with an entire revision of the standing legal system to boot, thinking suddenly they know better than everybody else?
Well you might say the situation is so serious that perceptions of arrogance and humble demeanour play little or no part (except perhaps in the role of malice in determination of leniency, however perhaps this is in fact misplaced justice).

And don't forget that an assumption of "understanding" is the very definition of arrogance. By what means have you decided you are suddenly better than the others surrounding you? But then simple "keys" such as "undestand by accepting that you do not understand" is ignorant double-talk, designed to do little more than make one feel better about being the same. Try simply admitting it when you don't understand and go make a coffee or something when you do.
You see it works like this: people cannot possibly be arrogant, they are people. Their actions, however may be.

Your definition of ego is awry also. Aside from getting the terms asunder you've perfectly described Freud, except your ego is his Superego and the part of us you leave as simply "the Self" is his Ego. Switch those around and you've given a textbook piece of Freudian psychiatry, one which I personally do not agree with (though I wouldn't exactly describe myself as a Jungian either).
Freud thinks we all want to root our moms and kill our dads, but Jung, well he thinks its all about telepathy.

But back to the topic you brought up, which is perfectly valid and I agree with you there. Youth is to be arrogant, but this is something one can only say with a wry smile (since it's not exactly true).

 

I`m glad you said this Vanir, because it allows me to elaberate in what I was talking about. Indeed to assume one "understands" as in has a "fixed psychological position" would be as you said, the very definition of arrogance. However, note how I said "understandING" the ING is defining not a conclusion, but a process. When you are constantly testing yourself and "seeing" "feeling" and "understandING" you come closer to realism then simply making assumptions about yourself.

One part that troubles me slightly though Vanir is this "By what means have you decided you are suddenly better than the others surrounding you?" Ihave decided that I am suddenly better? Not the case. I try, I succeed, I fail, I see, I fail to see. This is a analysis of arrogance, I said before, that arrogance is inside all of us. Us includes myself. I simply am, whatever category of quality I fall into in the process of that is fairly immaterial.

"undestand by accepting that you do not understand" is ignorant double-talk, designed to do little more than make one feel better about being the same."
Well... It actually makes a point to me. It almost reminds me of "Unconsciously Consciousness, Coinsciously Unconscious, Nirvana"

 

I'm guessing what the original poster is getting at might be about how a lot of MMA guys focus totally on the effectiveness of one's techniques rather than the spiritual element or tradition behind the martial arts. And by doing so, they come off as arrogant when they belittle other styles which are much more rooted in tradition.

Is that close?

 

I'm going to add another flip flop to this discussion. People who are strikingly humble are exercising a form of arrogance. People make statements about how humble they are. But what they're really saying is "look at how cultivated I've become."

 

I would think pointing out one's own humility in the first place would serve to automatically negate it.

 

which is a postive thing.

 

If you train in martial arts to become an effective fighting machine, yes.

But there can be plenty of other benefits of martial arts training.

 

Datsa what I'm saying.

 

meditation... you can't meditate effectively without a clear conscience.

Meditation is how MA helps people to become better people. Also, training discipline is another way. Some arts one way, some the other. I am lucky that my school values both.

My theory is that arts that focus only on the discipline aspect lead to more self-centered people.

 

Some things are true, some aren't. The people who can't tell the difference between the two usually end up labelling the ones who can as 'arrogant'.

 

I guess that psychopaths are really good at meditating then.

 

Its close but not quite. What if a styles tradition IS effectiveness? I`m not here to pick on Mixed Martial Arts, the topic is arrogance. I have found alot of Arrogant martial artists arrogant in more then simply there art. Martial art is a path of self mastery, in order to discipline ones self to do say some pushups, ones whole being is conditioned mentally to do this. So its not suprise that after some time in training that the elements of martial art spreads throughout there life. The idea is that humility isn`t the only thing that can spread.

I think that 1. Some mistake arrogance for that perosn being right. and 2. Some use the number 1 as a excuse to justify those who act just plain cocky. Traditional martial arts, if you want to label them that, is more then forms and spirituality, there are reasons that these arts survived so long. And yes some have compromised the original teachings for less combat oriented element sof there style, weither it be for money or just a personal choice, but this does not mean that traditional martial arts offer no effectiveness. In MY experiance, there are very arrogant traditional martial artists, and mixed martial artists, and to simply turn this into a Mixed Martial Arts vs. Traditional Martial Arts is to completely dodge the entire point for this topic. But thanks for bringing it up, its good that we could touch on this.

I do not consider myself a traditional martial artists, though I study a traditional art. Many styles started out as an attempt to fight in the most efficent way, but soon grew "self rightious" and no longer did things because the worked good or not, but simply because Sifu said so. However, not all arts have been cursed with this trait entirely, and if the opposite is believed, then mixed martial arts will develope the same trait. Many teachers long ago trained far more then you and I, and taught more then you and I, and they developed preperational lessons. Lessons that weren`t intended to be used in combat, but gave you the fundamental essentuals (like foot work) to do a more battle efficent one better. Disreguarding this technuqes/forms that were meant to polish ones technuqe, exercise the body, develope cordination, breathing, fluid (or rigid) movement, and clean up any sloppiness in ones personal technuqe, to me is a step in the wrong direction. However, making these preperational lessons, and forms the MOST IMPORTANT i believe to be also a wrong direction.

The Middle Path- I believe in practicing every technuqe given, or anything else for that matter, and attempting to become standardly good at it. If your art has a vass arsenal of fighting methods, you will be exposed to both the technuqes that do and do not fit you. In doing this you will develope a better understanding of how YOU not your style fights. After diligently studying for years, you begin removing sertin elements of fighting, (as your accuracy goes up, you might decrease power) but I recconmend not to forget it (don`t forget how to punch powerfully) because it was the learning of it, and un-learning of it that was so key to your production. You cannot un-learn what you haven`t learned.

Thank you.