Well to expand a little on my earlier reply, I think when we look at other martial artist we tend to look for what we want or expect to see. If we don't immediately find what we're looking for we can become very dismissive as people have a tendancey to become set in their ways. And their way is always right of course. I also think our judgement of what we see tends to be coloured by the personality or reputation of the practioner. If you hear someone say "Chiba is more martial than other shihan" enough times, then sure enough when you watch Chiba practice you'll think exactly the same. To bring things into balance I think that we should forget about reputations and personalities. We should see all teachers and students a like simply as students of Aikido.
Agreed aikiwolfie I think that it is a great pity when "personalities" place themselves between aikido and those searching for meaning and start to dictate what is "correct" and who is "correct" who "recognises" who or whatever.I feel that aikido is a very personal quest and sincerity and honesty must be brought to that quest And that can only come from within (with the help of some true examples) US AND THEM US AND THEM BUT IN THE END WERE ARE ALL JUST ORDINARY MEN. Quote is not from some eastern mystic. PInk Floyd actually !!! Koyo
I know you're not likely to appreciate reading this but... When we talk of people like T.K Chiba, Y. Yamada, Shioda, Tomiki, Tohei and many more western and Japanese instructors widely recognised for their skills and who have impeccable reputations; what you suggest fits perfectly however; as we all know, there are people who are far, far below those standards yet claim just as high if not higher grades and, lineage which is farcical to say the least. These people do not deserve the latitude you'd otherwise suggest. These people create imbalance in our community and although a noble gesture, to ignore their antics in the name of aikido's ideologlical system is almost as criminal as the embellishment. Reputation (good or bad) and personality (good or bad) are facets of individualism and we're all entitled to some measure of them (good or bad). We are of course all students no matter what experience or grade held but; as an individual, I will never ever afford or pay lip service to those I strongly suspect are embellishers of their experience/grade simply because aikido has a particular ideology.
Although my post BALANCE was a cry for understanding between martial artists. It IS between martial artists. Cowboys are not martial artists. And since I am not as understanding or compassionate as you David . That is my first and last mention of those types other than to say they are about as usefull as an ashtray on a motorbike. Koyo
This issue of balance between us all is quite an interesting one to contemplate; cross communication and interaction between clubs and organisations is IMHO one of the most ideal ways of creating harmony within the community however, one cannot escape the evil of ego within quarters of the art. People themselves become stereotyped into what aikido fits their "likes and dislikes" and that in its self is a bit of a problem because; if you add that in to the pot which also contains ego and an unhealthy measure of politics, we have a difficult situation to deal with. At the end of the day if we all had a little more common courtesy for each other, a bit more respect on a personal level for those in the art and, dropped a lot of the pretences which aikido seems to put up between people, we'd be a lot better off; and that's even before we've set foot on the mat.
I thought the idea was to find an instructor that you like, respect, and get along as the first priority. Then in training discover how good the Aikido is.
That is a difficult one rebel. When I first encountered Chiba shihan I immediately respected him and his approach to aikido but to be brutally honest I did not like him he demanded too much (I thought) I did not enjoy the attack on my ego and MY concept of what aikido should be. Of course now I see my meeting with Chiba shihan as the defining moment in my aikido training.Many "aikidoka" ran for cover when Chiba shihan arrived (I lost count of how many)I personally would wish to be attracted to a sensei or a club by the standard of the aikido and the attitude of the students to each other and potential members. Then again as I wrote in the Balance post this shall be influenced by my personality and expectations at that time. I do believe that once one has joined a club that no quick decisions should be made as is often the case among the more impatient among us. Regards Koyo
KATA WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR There are terms in budo Sempei and Kohai these mean respectively senior and junior and it is expected that the sempai shall look after the kohai and lead him in his trainingThe kata in aikido are mainly paired kata rather than single training although this is possible. Often when people speak of kata the emphasis is on form however kata has a far more deeper essence to it. For example during a kata the sempai shall use enough power and speed in his attacks to provide the kohai with a "sense of danger" bringing his zanshin to the fore and forcing him to perform under stress. Any and all techniques must be performed with spirit body movement and technique as one. Not easy under stress. If a half hearted or careless technique is employed it will be struck aside and more focus demanded. If a technique is attempted with good spirit and proper form it may be allowed through. Then kohai shall gain in confidence should this confidence creep toward arrogance he shall be immediately made painfully aware of this. (rebel) ai uchi can be seen as this sense of danger and the sempai shall strive to highlight the sense of confusion, uncertainty etc any of the potential weeknesses in kohai so that together thay may work on them to eliminate them in a relatively controlled manner although this is not always apparent to kohai!! there is a saying (isn't there always) for the student there are a thousand choices for the master there are none. In the kata kohai has no choice (initially) but to respond with the designated technique this is to avoid the confusion in the mind of the beginner who may feel that he must decide among a "thousand choices" Training in this manner gives a decisive feeling to the kohai and to the kata itself. I feel that kata are more spiritual (as in developing courage and decisiveness) rather than physical explorations of form. Your thoughts please Edit O Sensei disliked kata however the kata of aikido are not set in stone each having kaeshe waza alternate techniques and empty hand techniques to be used when appropriate. Thank you for your input some people are being directed to this thread by others so we must be doing something right. Regards Koyo
The performance of Kata, because it is a set pattern, is primarily about flow. In this matter of developing flowing movements, one is working towards a goal of fluidity. When one is fluid, things blend together and this gives the opponent no indication of start or completion, they are left in the unknowing of what is to come next. Often, the opponent should not realize what hit them until after it has happenned and it is too late for them to do anything about it. This does relate to zanshin, IMHO, because what one does in the beginning is wonder what is coming next. This can be confusing because there is so much to look for and so little time to act upon it. Zanshin cannot be achieved under such conditions. When one knows what is coming next, one can narrow down awareness to a certain area to look for. This makes it much easier to achieve a state like zanshin because the focus is based on what you know to come next and now all that needs to be done is act at the appropriate timing and apply good technique. 1. To have appropriate timing takes practice, lots of practice. 2. To apply good technique, the technique must be tested so that you can tell if you have poor technique, okay technique, or great technique. This is why it becomes important for Sempei to apply appropriate levels of resistance, speed and power in order for others to feel the technique, not just go through the motions. But why kata? There are other methods to develop flowing movements, and even if you develop this flow of movements, in kata it is a preset pattern and in combat it is not flow it is really fluidity that one wants, fluidity is NOT a preset pattern, it is a flow of no preset pattern or timing but rather it is based on what is appropriate for the situation and context. And because the movements in kata are preset, one does not truly have to reach a state of zanshin because you know what is coming next. I have come to believe that kata is a form of inspiration. An inspired person will want to learn and therefore will learn things better. Kata serves first as inspiration because a person can see their own improvement and they can see how "well" senior martial artists perform kata. Once inspiration is given from kata, a student/person may want to know what these movements mean and where these movements came from. They may even want to know how and when to use these movements in training outside of kata. It is the training outside of kata, the step-by-step basics to the fully resisting pressure testing where things are really learned, IME, as far as working towards practical application including incorporating the concept of zanshin. The kata alone cannot do ALL of this, but it can do some of it and offer inspiration.
With Kihon Dosa and Rensoku Dosa at the begginning of every Shudokan (Yoshinkan style) session, the only other 'kata ' forms we added were the 13 and 31 jo kata. Diferent Sensei also added some sword forms (solo and paired) etc. IMHO these were fundamental 'principles' which we learned as a preliminary to training in techniques. All kata seem to focus the mind and educate it in readiness for the practice of techniques, as well as a detatchment from fear. As to techniques, the balance element is quite well covered by such 'kata', but timing and distance IMHO only come from techniques. First of all, these have predicatable attacks, but IMHO by 1st Dan you need to be ready for the random element of jiyuwaza with weapons as well as atemi, as a test of zanshin and technique. Our own jo kata differ greatly from those shown by Aikiwolfie on Youtube. This is where I say clearly: our way is different, not better or worse. Jo kata, in Shudokan, have a strong emphaisis on hard strikes and kiai, as if multiple attackers needed to be repulsed. Albeit less fluid, each strike was emphasised, rather than moved through in a continuous motion. We also experimented to see if they held up as combat strikes/defences. They do - with my jo I broke a bokken held by a student attacking me from behind. The crack and the trajectory of the shattered end of the bokken shows that these are serious 'kick ****' moves, and not just for show. There is a place for kata in Aikido and I have no doubt we would be a poorer MA without them, but they need to be placed in context as a mechanism for learning fundamentals and, unlike karate, not an end in themselves or, heaven forbid, a path to grading which enables a student to avoid facing attacks. (Sorry, not PC tonight ). As to 'zanshin', I have a belief that it is partly genetic, which we then choose to develop or lose. Like a muscle, train or it withers. I have absolutely no doubt that dogs and many other creatures have this 'awareness' instinct, which our modern world pushes us away from, unless of coure we practice!! .
Koya, and Dave as Sensei, and JSA practitioners would it be too much ask for you comments on these video's? Kumi-jo #1 to #6 performed by Saito Sensei 9th Dan in Rennes (France) by 08/1999. Uke: Daniel Toutain - 6th Dan Iwama Ryu. You can download this video at http://aikido-france.net http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=691548118500622092 Excerpt from the seminar in Rennes by Nov 2005 : Aiki-ken - Shomen uchi Uke: Daniel ToutainYou can download this video at ... all ยป http://aikido-france.net Hitohiro Saito Sensei website: http://www.iwamaaikido.com/ http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6288689100297872143 How do shinken Waza and Kumi Do fit in with the no Kata philosophy?
Hi djchaos Welcome to the thread. As for my opinion on Saito shihan's weapons work. He was my teacher and I received permition from him to teach aiki ken and aiki jo. In my opniion he was the finest exponent of aiki weapons. Shinken waza? Do you mean kenjutsu with the live blade or Iaijutsu. The swordwork in aikido is more directed toward complementing the empty hand technique. Indeed a number of classical swordsmen critisied O Sensei's swordwork only to find when they faced him that his sword was always in their faces and he seamed to know what they were going to do next. However Sekiya shihan who was a master of aikido and a master of Katori shinto ryu and Kashima shinto ryu stressed to me that whenever O Sensei used a sword it became aiki ken or a spear it became aiki jo. Perhaps if you clarified exactly what you mean by shinken waza and kumi do (did you mean kumi jo) a contributor to the thread could venture an opinion. There are weapons kata in aikido (see thread 330) so I am uncertain what you mean by no kata philosophy.I think that all of the videos shown are excellent . Again welcome to the thread Regards Koyo
I think it is important to always remember that both the bokuto (aiki-ken) and jo (aiki-jo) are simply tools to develop taiso; the skills learned and used with either weapon should not be considered specifically combative in their own rights. Aiki-jo and ken are gendai in orientation and although their existence are -in part, as a result of koryu origins, no great emphasis should be placed on them as sword or spear waza. Of course aiki ken and jo syllabus have kata, that is obvious in the way they are taught indeed Chiba, Saotome and several other key shihan have created jo and bokuto forms with an emphasis upon taiso development, they are however; as with iwama aiki-ken quite different to applications used with a Japanese sword. With aiki-ken one is taught to strike (uchi) we are after all using a piece of wood (although shaped to represent a sword) With a sword we are taught to cut, the two applications are entirely different (although similar in motion) In regards to the question of aikido kata ? I can't say I've given it a great deal of thought and I realise that doesn't directly answer your question. Sorry for not being overly helpful in that respect
Indeed, however; the key is not becoming stereotyped into only appreciating one specific style or instructor. This is where division is created within the art.
Hi Rebel and Kiaiki Again agreed on every point particularly the fact that kata are a safer way to teach martial principles which however are of no consequence if not tested aginst a resisting opponent. Kiaiki I agree that a kata done without kime and spirit is just cheerleading. Just back from an interesting practice. We were studying maai using weapons. My understanding of maai is that it is Ma (space, distance) ai (mutual) meening that the distance between the opponents is sympathetic to both. Therefore taking the initiative or asserting control Must be done in the ma. By closing the maai or streaching it so the the opponent feels you are crowding him or causing him to over reach. We began the training with the jo against the jo with any attack allowed (Not pre arranged ) lacking only kime. Then I changed one of the weapons to the bokken telling them, since the maai gives the advantage to the jo, that the swordsman must constantly shorten the maai and attempt to close with the jo.The jo of course should choose to fight at a ma that favoured the jo.Much more mobility was demanded of the swordsman and when we went on to empty hand techniques we found that we were moving much faster and using our entering techniques more effectively. There were a few bumps and Chris is now sporting a neat little bruise on his forehead. So for a while we will be calling him Harry Potter. Great posts guys my thanks No need to reply to Dave's post but it should be fun when we finally find something to disagree on!!
I have been told it is true of some ladies but I think we are talking at cross purposes here.Or I could have said I don't know how tight is it Dave???? Koyo
