did anybody manage to catch a good video of the demo??... bit gutted there was no fan techniques involved but apart from that it was one of the best ive seen! i did see 2 guys videoing it walking around... never seen them before though.... ?? -DBN Michael
OK what concerns me here is I haven't been active for nearly 18 months and that is how I was always taught how to do the technique and have done it since 1992. What's new here?, the actual mechanics of the technique don't work if you pin the elbow as the person can move their hand out because alll you do is create a fulcrum for them at the elbow. The armpit stops the movement of the major joint and the hands trapped underneath. ( and yes Dave is my friend so no this isn't a go at him, as I think he is at a pretty damn good standard of Kuk Sool.) What concerns me is that if he didn't know that how many others in the system found that new information. Seriously I am shocked!!!!!
I removed the video as I thought you meant that I was the one who needed a 'smack up the head'. I actually use three or four points with my elbow (not all at once of course!), including: The cheek hollow (or inner jaw hinge); immediately below the ear behind the angle of the jaw; and, the side of the neck, about 2 or 3 fingers below the ear (as described by Unknown above). You can usually tell pretty quickly when you've got the right spot by the reaction of your training partner. If I'm feeling a little more compassionate, I usually only press my elbow into the deltoid, directly in front of the shoulder joint. They only scream half as loud with that one! :evil:
Possibly because his first instructor was a VERY newly promoted JKN who had not yet been shown that "nifty secret"! :whistle: But isn't this all a bit :topic:? We have just had a UK tournament! Where are all the KSW Mappers aching to tell us how they got on? Is it right Livingston won....again? (Well done John PSBN) How did SBN Carl's team, hosting the event get on?
hehe yeah but I learnt it at white belt from day one and I would have been learning them only a few months before you were as one in Jan 92. So why didn't your instructor show you? then you would have been teaching it as second nature by the time you were a newly promoted 1st Dan Did he not know it? and I'm guessing he's pretty high ranking now so how many others did he not show that, that then didn't show other people when they got their classes, and then they won't show the path is a slippery and fast one. Its basic body mechanics In seriousness it brings me to the point that sometimes I hear people say that they don't teach things at certain levels because people aren't ready. This is in the same system that says "We need more practice" well if you keep practicing something wrong and get it ingrained then it takes even longer to retrain and get the bad habit out. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. People need to understand basic body mechanics and have them drilled into their subconscious so that they don't have to think about them later on in their training, and can understand the new twist (pun intended ) on the later techniques. It takes an 7th dan to teach people this? Everyone over yellow belt should have it as second nature. But in order to do this instructors need to understand it themselves, and I seriously don't think half of them do. And that begs the question should people be teaching something to others and charging for it, when they don't understand WHY it works or doesn't in the first place.
All very good questions & observations, Silentmonk. I applaud you. :happy: But certainly you will agree that there ARE variant ways to finish a technique (i.e. pinning your opponent to the ground [immobilization principle]). And I'd also bet that you'd agree that the best time to introduce any such alternative methods should be left up to the instructor. That said, I'm not in disagreement with you about the apparent lack of quality you mentioned, but I chalk that up to simply the nature of the beast. After all, some teachers are good and some aren't. Some people are fortunate and have all kinds of wonderful information fall into their lap, and yet others must endure perilous hardships, searching high & low in order to eke out the slightest enlightenment WRT to their MA education. In a nutshell, "that's life!" Sorry, I don't mean to sound condescending, I'm just in one of those moods. :bang:
A newly taught technique may very well have some finer points and detail missing, as students often have enough trouble understanding the fundamental principles of the technique in the first place before they can go on to learn the additional subtleties of it.
exactly, learn the basics first, fine tune later as knowledge increases. it's a lot easyer and safer to fine tune/correct a small part of a KNOWN technique once they understand the basics, than it is to teach it in it's final form. same goes for hyung and weapons.
Um true, and I'm not disagreeing with anyone on the front of building on basics, but the fundamental basic of the whole pin is top trap the hand, pinning the elbow you don't do that, so the most basic principle of the pin has been overlooked. Therefore you don't have a pin so nothing to build on. Fine tuning needs to be done on safe foundations that work, or when the wind blows and the rains come the nice fancy house just crumbles away. If you don't understand the basic principle, no matter what you build on it, you are not building on anything and you miss the importance of everything else surely? Do you teach someone to turn their foot when they do a roundhaouse kick from the very beginning or just get them to throw a leg repeatedly and then bring the turn and hip alignment in at a later date, no you build from floor up so its second nature. Anyway thread derailed which wasn't my intention.
If I remember rightly Sir, SBN Carls School came third, although it might have been 4th. I am sure somebody will correct me if I got it wrong. Alos Sir think you for your congratulations to Livingston and PSBN John. As for my most memorable thing about Liverpool Tournament it has to be Masgter Sun Jin Suh's Crane on the Cloud Form. I think that this was the best I have ever seen him do this. The control was exemplary!! Getting my black belt was a close second! (Big cheesy grin from me, as it is only just sinking in really.)
Not to argue with you, monk, but one of the variations I learned for KBS #3 (i.e. the basic version, where one hand grabs the hand and the other hand grabs the elbow of your opponent's arm), stabilizes the folded arm next to their head by kneeling on the tricep, which then allows you to dislocate the elbow (if it wasn't done already) by pulling the hand away from their body. The method you describe (kneeling in the armpit to immobilize your opponent), is what I learned for a more advanced version of this take-down, where a rapid twirl/spin of your body is preformed after grabbing their hand only. Since you don't already have their elbow in your grasp, this armpit pin is a quicker way to immobilize them once they're down. I've seen plenty of other options over the years WRT pinning/immobilizing your opponent after a take-down, and I am NOT saying that what you posted is wrong. I'm just mentioning how I happened to learn certain basics, that's all.
No thats cool.. this is what a forum is for, constructive discussion. 2 points that do spring to mind, and again not an attack but need explaination for me to understand, why would the elbow be dislocated in the first place? In kbs 3 you are folding the elbow in the direction its meant to go so hyperextension wouldn't dislocate it, with the elbow being supported by the cup of your hand as you use it for a push and pull lever there is no sideways torque on the joint that I can see, so I don't understand how it would be dislocated before you pin in your simpler scenario. Also why is it simpler to pin on the tricep than in the arm pit which is shaped to except the knee perfectly when the tricep isn't. You can pin quite easily in the shoulder with you hand still on the elbow and because you knee isn't as close to the hand surely you have a slightly wider and more stable base. Also to teach in the order you are suggesting would mean you teach someone to dislocate a joint before they learn how to pin it simply. Isn't the dislocation a more complicated technique with more to remember about angles than just sticking your knee in the pit? Like I say to me sometimes the logic of the foundation start point doesn't make sense.
Note to self: I'm glad I started getting in the habit of saving what I wrote before clicking the Submit button (was it just me, or was MAP out of commission for several hours?) -------------------------------------------------------- To be honest, Silentmonk, I was trying to keep it brief (I can get long winded sometimes, but I'm sure you were aware of that ). I was simply stating the order in which I learned those pins, not that it was more logical. In the case of going with the most basic way to present KBS #3, you are right that both hands would be grabbing their arm (at wrist & elbow), so pinning the arm with your knee anywhere it would be secure and not slip off (what happens if kneeling too close to the elbow) would certainly be acceptable IMO. And maybe it's like teaching KiChoHyung #6 to white belts (i.e. the principle of covering intricate details early in an attempt to sooner overcome any obstacles in learning such a tricky maneuver). By insisting they learn to immobilize the opponent by using the tricep instead of the armpit, they quickly learn the pitfall of easing too close toward the elbow when trying to pin the arm with their knee. But the main reason I was taught the tricep was better wasn't so much in order to torque the elbow as I suggested in my previous post, but that it usually makes the person bridge their back off the ground, thus destabilizing their prone position from becoming too comfortable. That isn't the reaction I usually get when sticking my knee in someone's armpit. And yes, the most basic way to execute KBS #3 is by folding the arm in line with the elbow joint. The reason I mentioned that the elbow may already have been damaged (parenthetically, I might add) has to do with poor execution by beginners, who may lack the ability to do the turning of their body while dropping to their knee and still retain control of their balance. The slightest wobble and since they're hanging onto your arm, that's what's going to give. So even though that maneuver to dislocate the elbow can be applied intentionally in the middle of the take down, it's just as likely to get applied unintentionally as well. That's why I feel that beginners should know how to perform the falling techniques (even if not practicing falling from the joint-locking techniques just yet), and I strongly advise they learn those skills before being taught things like KBS. Believe it or not, I've seen schools that didn't allow actual falling until after red belt (only the final positions on the ground were taught). But I know full well that forcing people to do falling too soon can and does lead to them quitting straight away (most people can't deal with the constant impact -even on cushy mats- that you must incur to practice the falls successfully). And amazingly enough, they're very reluctant to confess that's the reason they've decided to quit. Hopefully I didn't deviate too far from the discussion, for most people's tastes anyway.
Wow! Your post, Unknown, quite coincidentally, relates to mine on the "Significance of Ki Bohn Soo..." thread. Anyway, I also prefer to kneel directly on their triceps, and then slap them in the nuts when they arch up off the floor!
Well, I did answer you there, so you might like to go see my POV considering the specifics as related to KBS, FWIW. Need I say it? (great minds think alike) :happy:
Yeah sorry about that Pugil and anyone else who's thread got hijacked, wasn't sure how to put everything back into that thread so kept it all here. Um people arch their back pretty impressively when I kneel in their pit too, because I have already pushed the elbow and pulled the wrist so the tip of their elbow is flat on the floor before I kneel, also they can't move the arm back at all so they are stuck there arched. I always thought it was the relation of the tip of elbow to floor rather than where you knealt that made the arch? does the tricep hit a pressure point or something that makes this arch only happen when pinning there? Where abouts along the tricep are you kneeling? shoulder end, elbow end, or mid tricep? Are you kneeling left knee then on the tricep so you are facing the direction of his groin for the strike? so require a half pivot after the take down before you place the knee? as I would kneel right knee in the pit as a constant move with the step and just smash his nose across his face with a nice palm if he proceeded to need it. OO is this getting to be an exchange of info thread, quick someone troll it lol
ROFL IDK about any PP in the triceps that's being targeted necessarily, so my answer is 'no' concerning that question. And FWIW, I find that further up the muscle belly (i.e closer to the armpit) usually works better in getting their back to arch (using your right knee provided you've folded their right arm underneath them). I was taught, if at all possible, to keep your midline pointed away from them when pinning, simply as a precaution to any counter strike they may attempt to throw at you.
Funnily enough, not everyone will push their feet into the floor and arch their back anyway. It's not uncommon to have to tell them that it can help to relieve the pressure. I usually kneel, right knee down if I'm doing it on their right arm, directly in the middle of the triceps. In reality it would be more of a 'drop' rather than a pin anyway, as I am not really interested in pinning one guy while his mates proceed to boot my head in. I wanna be back up on my feet again - hang on, that's a song isn't it?!! In any case, I have better ways of pinning the person on their front after that particular take-down. And I'd far rather pin someone on their front than have them face up.
Yeah I've found that too, it was pretty natural to me to arch though and sometimes I just assumed people would. Oops big mistake. Um yeah I'd go with having them face planted into the floor too and up so I could deal with anything else. I'm not 100% sure I'd want to be tied up with complex joint locks at all when facing more than 1 person anyway, who wants to tie up weapons when you have more than one person attacking you, I'd rather pre-emptively chin them, with a lot of aggression and hopefully put a little doubt in their friends mind so I can do a runner or to give me a window to get into them and cause some serious damage, and not have to worry about going down at all. But the question was started from the principle of performing KBS 3.
Some great discusssion going on here. Might get even better if it were moved to a new thread maybe? Not being picky, just that this is supposed to be about the Liverpool tournament and is everso slightly :topic: However, as interest in that subject seems to have dried up, I may as well join in and ask which KBS techniques you find most effective for much taller partners. (If they are very tall, then pushing back on the elbow as in #3 can be tricky as you have to reach up too far and lose strength, although there is always the option of just pulling sharply on the wrist and ignoring the elbow altogether, but technically, is that actually KBS #3?) I personally like those which go behind the partner, like #2 and 4 as you are in a safer position than when you step conveniently in front of them so they can whack you or grab you with their other hand as you pass by! Also I like #6, but I prefer the version where you skip in and sweep your right leg back (assuming you are doing it "normal side") before taking them down, rather than stepping in with the right and then through with the left. Again, doing it this way keeps you away from their other hand. I know I know, KBS are foundation techniques and you are not supposed to try to adapt them as self defence techniques when you are a beginner (or so the "book" tells me) But if you ARE a beginner and these are the only techniques you know, then you are bound to try and use them, so you may as well learnb them in a way that you could turn to your advantage should the need arise. IMO
