Liokault's Taiji Theories

dont really want to get into this issue becuase my experience of IMA is limited (and quite frankly id be more concerned with how well it works in a fight than whos grand-daddy did what) but i feel like i should say something here-

you seem to have a lot of hostility for san shou and combat sports... any reason why? it seems almost identical to hating on someone for being good at rugby or football (as in, more of an envy complex than a sense of superiority)

very true. im a non violent person- i dont look for fights and i dont enjoy them if they happen. subsequently my time spent fighting outside of the mat/ring has thankfully been very limited and i plan on keeping it that way. violence to me is associated with hatred. I hate haters

yielding is common in every efficient art- a lot of times yielding is what seperates the "bulldog" fighter from the smart fighter.

 

When I said competition, I was lumping together all non-cooperative acts.

I disagree that properly constructed and trained pairs work is far more effective is a far more effective way to replicate random street violence, But feel free to elaborate on why you find it more effective and how it is constructed.

 

Well, I think you will find that what I described in onyomi's chi gung is infact what every one is doing. This is because there is no magic force to move around your body. There is only bone, muscle, blood and nerve impulse.

 

I have to agree with Ikken. I'm tired of people who don't want to spar bashing anyone who does spar as some kind of testosterone-driven, preening, violent, overly-competitive, self-confidence-lacking jerk. Sure, some people who participate in combat sports may have some of these qualities, but so do people belonging to any other group. They may also do them because it's fun, good exercise and can improve your ability to defend yourself.

It's also okay if you just do Taiji for health and don't feel the need to risk injury with non-cooperative sparring, but that's no reason to constantly insult those who do like it or make broad assumptions about their motivations for doing so.

As far as "yielding" and so forth... we're all practicing martial arts. Martial arts are like a loaded gun, not a bullet-proof vest. They can be used for self-defense or used to hurt people, but even when used for self-defense, they function by either hurting people or making people realize you are capable of hurting them such that they give up. It's good to teach a proper attitude towards the loaded weapon that is martial arts training, in the same way you would instruct people on proper and safe gun use--but when or if and how you use the gun are seperate from whether you can use it or your aim is good. You could be a champion boxer who would rather be spit on and slapped around than throw a single punch outside the ring or you could be a Taiji teacher with a massive chip on your shoulder. The two things are seperate, so you shouldn't make assumptions about a person's character based on the way they train martial arts.

 

being sporting or not being sporting are hardly exclusive. Violence can just as easily be born of love.. at least that's what i tell myself..

MMA's not violent - no course not.. pfft! GETTING ON TOP OF SOMEONE AND POUNDING THERE FACE IN!

oH FOR THE LOVE OF SPORT! HA, HA... OR IS IT THAt they love themselves so much they want to be the best at a ground and pound..

yea whatever.. sorry for the caps but my lazy finger slipped.

 

im not even going to get into that arguement. you view it as a black and white thing. for you, hitting someone is simply violence. for what its worth if i was that egotistical i wouldnt be doing an art where i get regular hidings by people much better than me, id be doing one where i can fall back on ranking or whatever whenever anyone questioned my ability. I think my coach summed it up best with this (note: he is talking about ring fighting here, not giving someone a curb job)-

"There are two kinds of people, those who fight and those who don't. for people who fight, they cant explain why they do it. for those who dont, they can never understand why they do it."

 

Ok, Liokault, I'm not going to agree with you completely on the qigong, though I do agree it is a form of exercise and not learning to "use the Force." I also wish you would go into more detail about what the qigong you practice actually is and what it does. If it just exercises the muscles then how is it different from just calisthenics? Are leg lifts a type of neigong? After all, they work the muscles and the muscles are inside (nei) your body...

Also, what is your opinion on the value of forms? You think they're overemphasized by most modern schools and I'd agree with you, but you also do practice them. So what is their value? What do forms give you that you couldn't get through drilling individual moves, sparring or jumping rope? I notice that Wu/Wudang style forms seem to be even slower than most Taiji forms. What is the purpose of going so slow? Just a better workout?

 

no not black and white that is my point. You can't seperate it and say sports fighting is in some way non- violent - but it is not necessarily violent either. Of course there is much more to it. but still..
point being it is about the person and what they have in mind. Sports fighting is a good release of aggresion like a testing ground (military might call it a wargame), if you fancy to release.. and bond closely with your fellows.. ha, ha

 

It seem like such a wasteful shame that people would rather play around with the feeling of qi than use the force that is the mind and the naturally mechanical forces created in the body by good movement - through the use of mindfullness.

Bloody words

 

Agree Muttley, it's all just words really
I play around with 'qi' when I do neigung stuff and I also practise healing with it - but I never use it for MA applications stuff - if that comes one day, fine, if it never does, fine lol
I'm not in a rush
It's all a question of mindset, training and patience imo
In the meantime.... I just like playing

BTW what's everyone's take on meditation as part of taiji development?
I think it's useful
:Angel:

 

Saying punching someone is an act of violence is like saying hugging another man is gay.

It's the intent behind it, these guys can beat the snot out of each other, and do it from a place of aggression, but without a real violent intent. These guys who do this professional fighting don't want to send their opponent to the hospital, they don't to cripple them or put them out of action. The fact that one guy could be sat on for a minute or two while his opponent reigns down fists and elbows into his face till the ref stops the match, then get up and hugs the guy speaks volumes for this.

If I am at the judo and a guy tries to choke me out I don't take it personally, I know if I go to sleep I will be looked after, he will stop and wake me up, or make sure no one tramples me till I do wake up. I suppose these guys are the same, they know they are not out to hurt each other.

 

What are you some kind of pooofta?? lol

 

Apparently so, cause I drink tea.

 

Careful it could get worse...

you might turn English!!! roflmao

 

I just had one of those I'm such a '**** moments.

Here I am, trying to justify going to the new local Muay Thai class where I live, considering that I consider myself a pacifist, and that one post put everything in perspective.

I used to study BJJ, (can't afford it now) and I would be rolling with someone, who would then pull of some cool move and put my arm in a position where he could easily break it.

After tapping out, rather than think Oh my, how terribly violent, I would sit up and say That was cool! Could you show me how to do that?

Then the person in question would spend the next ten minutes or so showing me and helping me with it.

And yet I was worried it would be Fight Club at Muay Thai. :bang:

Yep, I'm a ****.

Thanks Brido. (PS This was not sarcasm.)

Dude, don't even joke about that.

 

This is a very important point. I hope it is noticed. Competitive training where you are left in no doubt who 'won' and who 'lost', is the most important feedback you can get regarding where your real ability level is. Most 'Martial arts' schools (as opposed to 'combat sports' clubs, like boxing gyms etc..) seem to make the lion's share of their fees from fantasists who don't want to know the truth.

 

I really can't believe I'm bothering to have this conversation all over again...

Actually, Cullion, ime most of the 'fantasists' I've met in the MA world (and I've met a fair few over the years) have been people who practice 'full on' competition sparring lol - Big stories about the invincibility of their teachers/styles in combat, exaggerated accounts of bouts they've fought in - usually total pants ime - lots of breathy, adrenaline based, uncentredness... lots of criticism for anyone who doesn't do things their way, addicted to competition in every aspect of their being - when I've trained with such persons they're often very limited - they often make beginners mistakes if you do anything outside their dojo experience.
Not everyone is like that, of course, it isn't about schools or styles, it's always about people. But people are shaped by their training ime
I've also met some really good EMAists, but they are the minority ime.
There is rubbish in any style of MA.
It's all about correct attitude, patience and training.

Training is training - reality is whatever the hell that is at the time - the two are completely different things, whichever way you cut it.
There is a big difference between putting on gloves in a controlled environment and dealing with someone in a chaotic and charged real life situation.
I am not against that stuff, persay (although it isn't really good taiji training imo - but let's not argue about that one again) - but it's just one aspect of training, not the whole...

E.G. If I fight someone, I have no thought of form whatsoever. I am entirely reliant on whatever has become ingrained in me and responding to the opponent moment to moment - and I will use any means necessary to finish the fight in my favour or get out of it...
If I fight someone, I fully expect to get hurt, period. I am under no illusions on that count. Every fight I was in when I was younger I would get cut, I had my nose broken several times, split lips, black eyes, you name it. I have a chip in the bone above my eye from a bare knuckle strike and a scar where someone threw a brick at me - it's reality - only a genuine fantasist would expect to never get hit, cut or take any shots.
If you wear gloves all the time you get a false impression of what it feels like, your timing is affected, your options are limited imo. You can punch someone over and over with gloves on and it will produce a completely different injury to one good bare knuckle strike and that's obviously true on the receiving end also - to say nothing of all the point striking you can do with bare hands that you can't do with gloves on.
Obviously bare knuckle free sparring is highly dangerous - hence the need for protection - but don't get fooled that that is realistic - it's no more real than any other Taiji training method - it's just different, that's all.

Personally, I'd rather do more controlled training where the occasional accidental hit feels like the real thing - it teaches you a healthy respect for the opponent, makes you concentrate and teaches you responsibility for what you might do to another person in a fight.

I find people who are more cautious in approach and generally thoughtful have a healthier respect for the 'realities' of violence. They may be less aggressive fighters, they may often lack skill at an early stage, but they understand the long game much better ime...
They also tend not to attract aggro and are much more fun to hang out with than someone who's always either bragging, criticizing, competing or scoping everyone out and looking over their shoulder for 'trouble' lol

'The Truth'?
Nobody knows what that is m8 - neither you, me or any other bugger - sorry!

:Angel:

 

What I had in mind with my post that seems to have bothered some people is coming from when I used to watch UFC back when guys would sit on top of eachother and rain punches down on the guy for what sometimes seemed like ages. Often the fights would then go on, and even then maybe the other guy would come back into it.. It's not like that now though. That is stopped quick now.. So apologies if what i said seemed off base.. Muay tai, boxing, judo , bjj . karate, comps etc are not like that now are they.

Some of the stuff I used to see - you could have been watching some guys going for it on the floor of some pub. just on viewing could you tell the difference- sometimes not really.. Only these guys are in there for reasons. I don't care to judge there reasons. It could be money, self esteem , prestige, proving something, enjoyment factor etc.. I have my reasons for whatever i choose. Some of us get off on pounding and getting pounded - with guidelines, personally i welcome it..But getting attached to 'a way' is very dumb.. like getting attaches to certain qi things if your goal is to train for fighting.- I hope that one day I can progress and change past the stage I am maybe when I grow up a bit more.. At this stage I have no reasons to compete for any glorification- and i have competed for prizes. 'Competing' for testing out/sparring is not the same! just to test myself out with good clean and fun sparring is enough for me today. And you wont find me sitting on someones chest pounding there heads to pulp.. I draw the line somewhere. And no I am not a pacifist _ I am wondering what that word even bloody means.. I know that I don't want to get into real fights, but if i do well -- I'll do my best...simple as. So where is the line between 'violence' and messing around. I may as well call it all messing around..or all violent behaviour - or training to use violence against violence. How long have you even been training..? When you train for years and years with fighting and violence in mind it can be like an anasthetic. But this also can be a lifestyle thing.. So before you go round generalising about people, remember we have all had different experiences in life. I have seen plenty of violence & fighting and been around some very violent people, who don't think twice half the time what they would do. . Violence to me might not mean the same as it means to you, messing around with some strictly boxer guy or a judoka ?. well it is what it is..

oh and yea - apologize if i've generalised about competitors in this thread.. my bad. talk, talk , happy talking, as long as you're still walking it's fine and dandy .

bye byes

 

See now that explains your looks alot... :love: :Angel:

TBH TJB there are far too many fantasists out there... its really scary sometimes...

 

Problem is that they sit both sides of the fence. 'Hippies' and 'realists'.