No problem, Maximus. That's why I'm here. CXW: I don't know how they learn it at the school, but let me give you an example of how I learned/taught LINE/MCMAP. It is usually taught in stages in order to keep crowd control within reason. Stage 1: Warm-up. Endless repetitions of Push-ups, sit-ups, and stretching. Basic techniques are demonstrated from a raised platform, and the unit repeats as ordered. This takes roughly 15-20 minutes. Stage 2: Body Hardening. Marines are partnered up, and various forms of "Body Hardening" are utilized. This involves slamming forearm bones together, palm striking eachother's palms, roundhouse kicking eachother's quads, elbow striking eachother's groin muscle (the muscle, not the groin), and clacking shins together. This takes 10-15 minutes. Stage 3: Exhaustion drills. Marines are usually tired and weary by the time combat approaches, and so training must be done under similar circumstances. This stage of training is by FAR the most painful, as the goal is to destroy all energy reserves. Drills include knee drills (partner holds a pad while other man knees the hell out of it for 3 minutes or so..then switch), ground rolling (partners lay down facing eachother, one holds pad, the other throws prone knees. On command, the knee'er throws the opponent to the other side, and knees with opposite leg), partner carrying (self-explanatory...drag your partner across 100 ft until you pass out), Toss Drill (repeated throws and take downs, the goal being to disorient and exhaust the Marines. Performed fast, without pause), etc... This usually takes anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours. Stage 4: Technique practice. Specific techniques are shown, then practiced in the air, then practiced with partners. Techniques range from Knife fighting "Bulldogging" (each Marine carries a knife, one Marine pushes the other back, palming their face and stabbing at various targets) to ground submissions. Rifle techniques are also taught, as are fixed bayonet drills. This lasts for 30 minutes or so. Stage 5: Free form. During this stage, a type of freeform training is practiced depending on the technique taught. I.E. A knife technique will involve "Live" Knife Fighting (Sheathed or plastic blades) with chalk covered blades, and a ground technique will involve freestyle "randori", complete with "King of the Circle" style games and tap out limits. This usually lasts for 30 minutes or so. -Keep in mind that the practitioners are wearing full or half-cammies, Flack Jackets, Combat Boots, and Kevlar Helmets. For some drills, Load Bearing Vests are worn with full canteens and filled ammo pouches. In addition, some training takes place in mud pits or waist/shoulder high water. As you can imagine, military close-combat MUST be toned down in order to respect physical safety when taught to civilians. Medical attention is free to Marines, but not to High Schoolers. -In my opinion, teaching highschool age teenagers military combat is a good thing. Every young adult needs confidence, exercise, and a means to vent frustration. So long as the school in question has HARSH rules against student vs student violence, I see no problem with it, so long as weapon drills are excluded. May you achieve Satori
Damn, Im out for a few weeks and I miss the Uber DEadly Ultimate EXTREME Kombat Systema!!! Damn neck injuries. So...I am sure this is very extreme...yes...
In school the main stuff we learnt was headlock eascapes, wristlocks etc. and what to hit etc. like to blow eardrums and stun ppl (We didn't practice blowing eardrums btw)
So its hugely watered down? If so then you couldnt really call it by the same name anymore? I dont think its a good idea to teach this Self Defense, I went to a school 2 years ago which had a large violence problem due to surrounding schools, I would hate to think what would happen if they knew how to burst an ear drum and not just throw hay maker punches.....
I wouldn't worry. There's not much credit in the idea that you can apply advanced techniques like that against a resisting opponent without a solid grasp of the fundamentals first. I was under the impression that there is NO officially sanctioned style of hand to hand combat in the special forces beyond the kind of guidelines in that field manual. I might be wrong.
Well...to be honest about 1 day after we had learnt it only about 5% of people could remember what we had been taught lol. Also this was taught to people who had stayed on for 5th year so all the NEDS and Schemies had dropped out...
In my old unit, there was an entire unit of 1st Force Reconnaissance. We worked with them, ate with them, and trained with them. When a Company Commander decided to do MCMAP for PT on certain days, me or another qualified instructor taught them. They learn what every other Marine learns, and nothing more. Now, keep in mind that advanced levels of MCMAP are available to those who want to teach or to simply learn. This training is open to any Marine who meets the rank requirements (Beginner Instructor requires Corporal [E-4], and Advanced Instructor requires Sergeant [E-5]) and who gets permission from their company commander. That's it. Special Forces do not usually receive "special" close-combat training. Why? Well...the standard Force Reconnaissance Marine spends weeks at a time in hostile, foreign territory. In order to do what they do best, Force Recon Marines need advanced training in aquatics (frogman course), parachuting (Jump School), sharpshooting (Scout/Sniper School), survival (standard ranger/SEAL courses), SERE (HARDCORE POW training), etc... The average Special Ops Marine spends at least a year and a half in active duty training. Once that is done, they are almost always sent on mission after mission without rest. In other words, they have more important things to do than spend weeks learning hand-to-hand combat. In addition, a common misconception about the military is the use of close-combat. Close-combat is primarily taught to inspire aggressiveness and instill courage. The reality is that RARELY if EVER is a soldier/Marine caught without some form of weapon, be it a rifle (with or without ammo) or a knife. In other words, why focus heavily on a system of combat that will rarely be used? There. No more talk about "Super Secret Ninja Master Eye Keel U Kwicklee" close-combat training for the military. May you achieve Satori P.S. Keep in mind that the kind of person who wishes to join the Special Forces may be inclined to have previously studied a martial art. Mike Echanis, Green Beret extraordinare during Vietnam, was a confirmed instructor of Hwarang-do. He probably possessed substantial close combat ability, which was learned previous to the military. Judge the individual, not the whole.
Thanks Satori... Quite fascinating information...like a good book, I want to keep reading. I am impressed with the training that takes place to prepare these guys...I knew it was harsh, but that kind of training really seperates the men from the boys.
MarioBro- You are absolutely right. The men that choose to go Special Forces are definately a different breed of Marine. Since you seemed interested in the whole "Special Forces" thing, let me elucidate a little more on this special unit. -You are able to join Force Reconnaissance from ANY MOS (Military Occupational Specialty...think "job"). While MOST Force Recon Marines come from Infantry (MOS 0311), I have known Marines who joined Special Forces from MOS positions like Motor Transport (Truck Drivers), Supply (Wharehouse Workers), Data Entry (Think...wait...you get it), and even Admin (Paper/Pencil Pushers). In addition, there is no rank requirement to get in. Private to Master Sergeant are allowed in, if they pass the indoc. What's the indoc, you say? Well...only the most horrifying experience the average Marine will go through. Varying from several days to over a week, the Recon Indoc is a series of "tests" that determine who is cut out for the elite. During the indoc, most Marines get little to no sleep, and spend the entire day/night undergoing various "hazing" PT. Hazing PT is basically a qualified Recon Marine putting the testers through a never ending series of grueling physical exercises. We aren't talking about Jazzercise here, boys. These exercises include static leg extensions (holding legs out six inches without moving) and static pushups (holding a half-pushup) held for 20-30 minutes at a time. This usually takes the entire first day. Next comes the O-Course/Confidence Course mud run. These are specially designed courses that test overall body strength, and are run many, MANY times. Keep in mind that the "pursuants" are competing against eachother, since only a few will be chosen. Also note that the Marines are in freezing mud, soaked and miserable, while running the course. Then comes the water proficiency test. Marines are tested on their ability to float in heavy gear, swim in full battle gear, and carry objects in the water. Keep in mind that the average set of battle gear weighs somewhere between 40 and 60 pounds, and that the marine is wearing a helmet and boots. In addition, the Marine is expected to drag and rescue other fully outfitted Marines, some of which will fight the rescuer. Also, the pools used for testing are often over 30' deep, and the space coupled with the heavy gear causes you to SINK like a rock once you stop moving. This is a truly terrifying experience. The last test I can think of consists of a 6+ mile pack RUN. Yes, I said RUN, not hike. The Marines are racing eachother in FULL gear WITH a 60+ lbs back pack. The trail contains hills, slopes, mud, water...every obstacle to make your life miserable. This is a VERY dangerous test, for many Marines become fatigued and careless, and leg injuries are freakishly common. A simple mistep results in a compound fractured tibia...not fun. Most Marines testing are expected to maintain a 6 minute mile even under these conditions. -There may be other tests that I haven't mentioned, but I believe that just the above is enough to send most running in terror. When I first enlisted, I wanted to "join the best", as most do. However...basic training fractured my tibias, and such back-breaking work was beyond me. Keep this in mind the next time you say "I can be Special Forces if I wanted". May you achieve Satori
Well, I wish I had what it took to become a member, but alas I am beyond my prime, as well as a Canadian (thus not able to even try), so I would never say that. All the guys who do it, or even try to do it, definitely have my respect though.
I MIGHT be joining Marines etc. some time in the future but Im still loking at my options. That in mind I look at the tests they go through and I cant help but think 'Oh dear me, what am I doing?'
Thank you for the extremely insightful and grounding post. You have done a wonderful job removing the mysticism from this area of martial arts myth. - Matt
MarioBro- Bah, come on down to the states, and I'm sure we'll let you join the Corps . CobraMaximus- Ok...bear with me because I'm about to sound like an old fart. -Make sure you think LONG and HARD about joining the military. Sure, you get free medical, dental, housing, food... and you get to play with weapons....BUT you will be working 20 hours a day in cold, miserable conditions. You will RARELY see your family, have a hard time dating (you will be stationed in military towns, and military towns are slim pickings), and you have NO choice where you live. In addition, no other job includes in the subtext "Possible bodily damage in the form of shooting, maiming, breaking, freezing, torture, and psychological trauma can and often will occur while performing your job." Now...let us pretend that you STILL want to join the military. That's great, and the Corps will love to have you. However...do me one little favor first, ok? Get a frickin' degree! Go to a community college, then transfer to a university and graduate. Don't like school? Major in Liberal Arts, Art, Horticulture, Naked Pandas...whatever. Just get a degree, and become an Officer. You will IMMEDIATELY be elevated beyond the not very nice work that most of us enlisted had to suffer through. You will be given loads of authority, better rooms/meals, meaningful jobs (I had to guard a manhole for 5 hours once), and skills that translate to civilian life. If you are going to donate yourself to the military, at least do it right, like I SHOULD have done. There, the old fart is done. May you achieve Satori
*Applause* Excellent advice Satori. Now where is this college offering the Naked Pandas Degree? :Angel:
In defense of Shotokan and other TMA, I've found that the environment and instructor play the largest part in the effectiveness of an art. One of my close combat training partners studied "Taijitsu" in the Filipines. Now, from what I've heard of a lot of "Ninja" training isn't very flattering, but this 5'2", 120 lbs Filipino Sgt. whooped my butt clean every time. I'm not talking about "controlled, gentle sparring" folks, but hard-core, full-contact military training. We were forced to wear helmets and flak jackets, then put in a sandbag ring for 2 minutes to "eliminate the enemy". On the ground or on our feet, this little guy cleaned my clock flawlessly, and hardly seemed fazed at anything I did. Another instance includes a Karate blackbelt who served as a Green Beret in Vietnam. While his kata was perfect and I'm sure he could compete "gently" if he wanted, this old veteran (62 years old) tossed me and the other young, fit Marines around like ragdolls. His timing was flawless, and even his "pulled" punches were amazing. During freeform "self-defense" (basically us trying to dog-pile him en-masse) I punched him full-force. His block paralyzed my arm from the shoulder down, and his "pulled" counter-punch immediately made me vomit (literally...my uniform was a mess). Please....STOP judging an art, and judge the ARTIST instead. May you achieve Satori
HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!! A lot of people say Shotokan is rigid and robotic, and to be honest some are right, but I definitely wouldn't say that about some of the seniors at my school. I have fought some of the black belts (had my ass kicked into oblivion) and they're very agile and 'mercurial', one guy, the Sempai, actually manoeuvred behind me before I had even finished throwing a punch. So I don't think that doing a particular art automatically means you're a rotten martial artist.
Awesome posts, Satori... since I can't just quote everything, I'll please take this little bit of wisdom from you. Thanks!
