light to no contact sparring (tag and score) sparring

Hey all, we've been having a bunch of topics lately discussing light contact vs. full contact sparring. I think it should be mentioned that when karateka do tag and score sparring, it's not necessarily a bad thing. We naturally get a slightly biased view here at MAP since the people who are going to go out looking for a martial arts forum are generally a little more "hardcore" in their martial art, but we aren't the entire demographic.

Say average Joe, husband and father of two is looking for a hobby, or a sport he can compete in without having to go pro. He might not want the risk of breaking a rib or spine. It's for these people that I see tag and score being made for. There are lots of sports for those that want to do a sport as a hobby, like ultimate frisbee, or golf. Tag and score karate is just another sport, not everyone is under the delusion that it's the ultimate self-defense.

Thoughts?

 

My thoughts: some people on this forum spend too much time judging others because those others have different priorities and goals in their training.

Light-contact point-stop striking-only sparring is a poor proxy for a street fight. No doubt. But so what? That doesn't mean it's an invalid martial sport. Fencing is a poor proxy for a street fight, and I've never once hear someone say that fencing is an illegitimate martial sport as a consequence. I fenced for four years, and never ONCE heard such an argument about our light-contact point-stop sparring. Yet the same argument is advanced every week on this forum about karate light-contact point-stop kumite.

Judo, taekwondo, light-contact karate, Greco-Roman wrestling, kendo...none of these martial sports were meant to simulate a street fight. All of them are valid pursuits IMO.

 

I guess the question is, do you want to learn to fight or play a fancy game of tag? Mitlov mentions Judo and wrestling as sports, however consider that compared to the tag-esque competitions for karate and TKD, Judo and wrestling resemble real fights. You don't stop after getting a point, you do your best to incapacitate the other guy (within the rule set, admitedly). The "sport" tag doesn't eliminate something from teaching effective fighting - but neither does it signify that every form of "martial sport" teaches effective fighting.

 

I disagree with how you characterize just about every sport you use as an example--both the ones you classify as "learning to fight" and those you classify as "a fancy game of tag."

I would vehemently disagree that Greco-Roman wrestling "resembles a real fight" whereas the others do not. Punching, hitting, choking, and joint-locking are all forbidden. Touching the other person below the waist is forbidden. The match is stopped and you score a point if you push your opponent out of bounds. The match is stopped if someone remains prone for an extended amount of time without moving. (See 2:30 below). Skills built up while training in Greco-Roman wrestling may help form the basis of an effective fighter (the same is true of karate or even rugby, I would argue), but that doesn't mean Greco-Roman wrestling itself resembles "real fighting" more than any of the other martial sports I listed.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs_oNN2X-lk"]YouTube - Greco Roman Wrestling[/ame]

Similarly, you mischaracterize judo. Modern judo is NOT continuous! It's just as much a point-stop sport as JKA Shotokan kumite is. I would also argue that it doesn't actually resemble a real fight, at least the real fights I have witnessed:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbT5ePVvlWY"]YouTube - Judo match[/ame]

You also mischaracterize taekwondo sparring. Olympic (WTF) TKD is continuous sparring, not point-stop. You stop if someone falls or if someone goes out of bound or if the competitors clinch, but not for each point. It's also full-contact; there are no penalties for excessive force and you can win via KO (though admittedly KOs are rare due to the use of protective equipment and the lack of head-punching).

And your characterization that karate competitors do not "do [their] best to incapacitate the other guy (within the rule set, admitedly)," whereas other sports do, is inaccurate. I've seen boxing competitions (particularly light weight classes at the Olympics) where people were clearly trying to win through a flurry of points instead of a KO, and I've seen JKA Shotokan competitions (particularly the higher-up stuff in Japan) where people were frequently hitting each other hard enough to make legs go rubbery. And what does "incapacitate your opponent" even mean in a Greco-Roman wrestling context, where neither KOs nor submission holds are used to achieve victory? Your bright-line rule doesn't work.

 

Yes yes, I realize these are limitations. My point is that you must actively try to pull off techniques against your opponent rather than simply tap him in the face or whatever.

Point taken. That Judo fight made me unhappy.

I was under the impression that light and no contact sparring is common in TKD... Perhaps the Olympic rules differ... but that's a whole 'nother can of worms (keep those darn hands up!!!).

So you get people taking advantage of the rules... Are we talking about the people that bend the rules or what they should be doing?

*sigh* Okay, perhaps I didn't make this clear in my previous post. I'm not saying that karate stinks or that all karate guys are tappy tagers. Just saying that it is a common type of comptetition in said art.

 

You consider it like real fighting when a Greco-Roman wrestler is on his belly, spread-eagled, and is trying to stay in that position, simply because he is using 100% of his available force to do so? How about when a wrestler picks up another guy, then falls backward, slamming himself against the mat with the other guy on top of him? How about pushing someone over a line? None of these things are related to real-world fights.

And you don't think karateka are trying to "actively trying to pull off techniques"? What do you call trying to punch someone in the face who is trying not to get punched and is trying to punch you? Regardless of whether you're hitting as hard as you possibly can or not, that's still "actively trying to pull off techniques" against a resisting opponent. [edit]How is that different than a wrestler who is trying to pin an opponent--not crush his torso or suffocate him against the ground, but simply pin a fully-resisting opponent? Both are trying to execute techniques that will make them win, not deliberately seeking injury or trying to KO their opponent.[/edit]

There are many different rule sets referred to as "taekwondo," but the most common by far, worldwide, is Olympic-style taekwondo, also known as World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) taekwondo. It involves full-contact continuous sparring wearing a hogu (chest protector), headgear, shin pads, and gloves. [edit]Kicks may be delivered to the torso or head, and punches may be delivered solely to the torso.[/edit] People frequently misunderstand what it is and refer to it either as light-contact (because the protective gear minimizes visible signs of injury) or point-stop (because out-of-bounds stoppages and clinching stoppages are common).

If keeping your hands up helped you win, people would do it. But taekwondo competitors don't use a boxing-esque guard for the same reason that wrestlers don't...because it doesn't help you win the competition.

These are ALL martial sports. None of them are "real fighting." I don't think that the term "a fancy game of tag," which is dripping with condescension, should be applied selectively to some but not others based upon...well I'm not even sure what you're basing it upon, as I've said above.

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjeheCLwB0"]YouTube - karate sparring[/ame]

Leaving your head exposed, hopping around on one leg, turning away and cowering when someone throws multiple shots... yeah, that's not going to build bad habits.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qDmEwB7rH4"]YouTube - Red Dragon School of Martial Arts Sparring Practice Aug 13 09[/ame]

More hopping around on one leg, low impractical stances, leaving the head up when punching the body... more bad habits brought on by light-contact sparring.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJopPUkr_qs"]YouTube - point sparring[/ame]

Even more hopping around on one leg, hands down, lack of balance.

Point sparring is essentially a glorified game of tag where theatrics and theoretical "damage" is valued more than actual accomplishment. In Greco-Roman, you don't grab a guy and pretend to throw him, then have the ref judge how many points you get for a theoretical throw. You actually have to put the man on the ground.

I spent ages 5 to 18 in a point-sparring school. I'm well aware of the bad habits it causes because I've had to spend years breaking them. I've had guys come to me from similar backgrounds and had to un-do the damage that point sparring caused. Even a limited format of full- or moderate-contact sparring is better than a "more complete" version of light- or no-contact sparring because you actually have to land punches, kicks, and throws, you have to face a higher degree of resistance, you're punished more for bad habits, and you develop better defense because you know you're going to get popped by a good shot. Full-contact makes you tougher. It makes people who wouldn't otherwise be able to face the difficulties of a bad situation, more able to handle it. That Greco clip you posted does more closely resemble a "real fight" than the point-sparring clips I posted because you're actually trying to do something to another person and keep them from doing something to you. And, also the fact that a lot of fights end up in the clinch and Greco teaches you how to deal with that. Neither the Greco format nor the point-sparring format is what I'd recommend for real self-defense training, but my ideal would much more closely resemble the Greco format.

Even if a habitual point-sparrer can translate heavy-bag/pad/makiwara work to a real fight with no full-contact training, the excessive bad habits of his home format (kiais which leave the jaw hanging open, hopping around on one foot to execute multiple tippy-tappy kicks, hands down, expending energy needlessly by bouncing around) will still endanger him more than than someone who trains full-contact.

 

I believe that you hit the nail square on with this one. Different people take up the arts for different reasons, and they are all valid reasons. As long as someone is getting out of it what they seek, then their training is legit. Not everybody is trying to be the second coming of John Rambo, and a person's training is not inferior or illegitimate just because they are in the arts for some other reason than pounding somebody's face in or ruling t3h d34dly str33t. I personally think that is one of the beautiful things about the arts - they offer something for everyone, whether its self defense, sport, stress relief, exercise, hobby, or what have you. The problem comes when someone gets in the arts for their own reason and then uses that reason to judge the merits of other people's training. I agree with you kobudo-man, tag sparring and point-stop are perfect for the hobbyist who has a job and a family to support. They are fun sports and I think that when someone mocks them for being "unrealistic" or "not self defense", they really show their own ignorance and narrow-mindedness in the arts. Some people train just to have a good time and enjoy a hobby, we should never knock them just because some people choose to train for self defense or to be professional fighters.

 

That's all good, and if we are talking about training for self defense or professional fighting, then you are spot on. However, remember the context that kobudo-man is using here - average Joe, husband and father of two is looking for a hobby, or a sport he can compete in without having to go pro. Taking up karate and engaging in light to no-contact sparring is his sport of choice to meet this need. He is not looking for self defense or real world fighting prowess, he is merely looking for a fun sport and hobby to have a good time. Light to no-contact sparring fills this need, and if he is enjoying it, then the rest is completely irrelevant. This is another example of different people training for different reasons and why we shouldn't take our own reasons and superimpose them on others or use them to judge something that others are able to appreciate for what it is and derive value from.

 

First off, we never said that this was about getting tougher or self defense. In fact, if you'll actually use your eyes for a few seconds and read the previous posts you'll find these.

We've made very clear to state that we know it isn't good self defense. That's not what these people are looking for though. They're looking for a sport, and that's what it is.

Secondly, those people are doing what is available in their sport. They may not be the best examples, but still, they off balance the opponent, they aim to take down their opponents guards with fakes, and they throw enough power to throw their opponents back at least at a few points. No, it's not a real fight, it's a SPORT.

EDIT: Thanks Forgotten, this is exactly my point.

 

What i have learnt from this great Forum, is that everyone responds to different aproach.
One type suits one and one the other.
Nice Heian yondan Mitlov, congrats. Maybe rest more weight on back foot in backstance otherwise really good. Im only a brown belt mate so its just my amatuer observation. I like that Kata lol
Good points everyone

 

What's the point of pinning someone? From an MMA or street-fighting perspective, it's to smother and maul them, like Lesnar did to Mir at UFC 100, or to set up a choke or the like. Yet wrestlers don't actually do this. They pin their opponent, don't follow up with anything else, and let them go after three seconds. In my mind, that's VERY similar to putting your fist into someone's chin without powering the punch in a KO attempt.

As for a wrestling throw, that itself can indeed do damage...just as a sweep in point-sparring does damage. In both situations, hitting the ground causes real damage.

A lot of the videos you posted depict people who lack talent; that's different than the idea of light-contact point-stop competition being fundamentally value-less, even as a pursuit in and of itself. So here's some world-class point-sparrers to compare to the world-class wrestlers I had previously posted.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNZRTY4TeVM"]YouTube - Yahara v Togeda[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh2TNO5CGXQ"]YouTube - 52nd All Japan Kendo Championships[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF2684mtchs"]YouTube - Leipzig 2005 Fencing Mens Epee Semis Finals[/ame]

Honestly tell me that these point-sparrers above are NOT "actually trying to do something to another person and keep the other person from doing something to them." Isn't that what SPORT is? I have no idea how such an assertion can be made about ANY competitive sport competition, no matter how related or unrelated to street fighting it is.

Curious you associate those "bad habits" solely with point-sparring...because in fact, they're simply "non-MMA habits." Last time I checked, wrestlers have hands down (compared to MMA competitors and boxers) and many world-class boxers bounce around. Do they not train "full-contact"? No, they simply don't train MMA.

The fact is ANYONE who trains in a sport unlike MMA is going to have to do a lot of re-learning idiosyncrasies of their sport in order to compete in MMA. It's not just karateka. But that only matters if you want to compete in MMA. A boxer who just wants to box doesn't need to worry that bobbing and weaving and bouncing won't work well in MMA. A wrestler who doesn't want to do MMA doesn't have to worry about keeping his hands up to intercept punches. Similarly, a karateka point-sparrer who just wants to do karate point-sparring, like the person in Kobudo-man's original post, doesn't have to worry about whether kiais will compromise his MMA performance.

 

This is key. There is nothing wrong with competing in MMA. I have a lot of respect for the guys and gals who compete in MMA, as it is not an easy sport. However, we must remember that MMA is not the be all end all of martial arts training, and that people train for reasons other than competing in MMA. The above is a perfect example of this. A boxer may just want to box, a wrestler may just want to wrestle, A sport TKD person may just want to compete in sport TKD, and a Karate point sparrer may just want to compete in Karate point sparring. Whether what they are doing is transferable to the street or the octagon is completely irrelevant because they are not training for either one, nor is that their intention. Using MMA performance as a measuring stick for those who do not train for MMA or have intentions of entering MMA is a major mistake and it misses the point completely. It would be like using efficiency in a knife fight as a measuring stick for those who compete in MMA - two completely different areas, two completely different aims.

 

I think there's partly a terminology problem here. I think when people say "point stop" or equivalent, you're thinking dudes in funny coloured trousers hopping about like an injured bunny trying to tag each other with a light kick. What I (and it seems Mitlov) think of is the more standard (at least in my experience) shobu ippon kumite where you win through situational dominance by leaving your opponent defenceless. It's a different set of tactics, attitude and level of intensity.

Plus, as I'm sure you know, in a real confrontation (by which I mean dudes on the street who attack you without wearing padded gloves) it really does only take one smash in the face to leave you feeling pretty damn defenceless (ippon!). The idea of most karate training is not to mimic the funny-trousers point sparring to train the idea that you might exchange light punches with a mugger until one of you touches a scoring area. It's to train the idea that a bare fisted punch to a delicate area can be a fight stopper, so to make sure that you're the one to do it, not the other guy.

I always try to use the term "ippon kumite" to differentiate the traditional Japanese karate shiai/competition from the American oriented "point fighting". I very much prefer the former.

 

Like Moosey, I definitely prefer the shobu ippon kumite approach to the hopping-around-on-one-leg approach. The folks in my organization fight like Yahara. They're not nearly as good, of course, but that's the overall style and intensity of the competitive point-stop sparring our organization does.

But if someone enjoys the other type of point-stop as a hobby, as an end in and of itself, good for them. I've got no problem with that, and I don't see why other people do.

 

I think the tippy tappy tag fighters don't realise how small a jump it is to training and sparring in a full contact gym. As it's been said many times full contact sparring isn't full contact (or shouldn't be) and the risk of getting an accidental injury is almost as high in semi contact arts. After quite a quick learning curve most people are quite capable.

Light contact sparring within a full contact gym

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3OCnbA56mU&feature=channel_page"]YouTube - Light Sparring 1[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y79rpvecCh8&feature=channel"]YouTube - Light Sparring[/ame]

It's only when fighters are getting ready for a fight then you have to be picky with who goes with who.

 

You agree this is a skill test then...... .. . . . .
With set of rules etc.. If you are refering to the poison of sparring thread then this is a great example of tippy tappy
If not whats your point..

 

The point is why bother with semi-contact?
It's the training behind it. If you compete and always spar for the points then you generally train like that. Turning it down is easy once you've some experience. Turning the contact up is nigh on impossible if you don't train to that level. It's beyond your grasp.
The videos posted were two friend playing. They don't show the pair of them trying to bite each other in the clinch or the kick to the throat that ended the night, just a bit of fun.

 

Just to show that Karate can be trained well (About halfway through)

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89482

 

Thankyou Moi.
Always learning