Sir, please use the term 'ninjutsu' or better use 'ninjiutsu'; that will be much more appropriate. I will thankful for that. Next I must say that 'ninjutsu' is a very old term, as far my belief is. A modern term is 'Ninpo', used to consist all the main arts a ninja practiced including, but not limited to, taijutsu. Next, your opinion is correct; the ninjas were like special forces of the old and they used to carry out various covert activities but were not limited to it. Most ninjas were samurai so they practiced the same arts of combat as did the other samurai, according to their family tradition/school and/or as per their likeness. But a specific form of combat wasn't necessary for them. It was just anything that worked for them. Most preferred to practice Yawarajutsu (now jujutsu) and kenjutsu, which was pretty much normal for them. While some who had a good taste for a variety of martialarts practiced various other arts. For example, we know that Momochi Sandayu practiced Karate too while the Kage-ryu from which Shinkage-ryu got birth, was a sword school with ninjutsu teachings included. Since the main topic was to define 'Ninjutsu' and since my link to the post is deleted, let me explain it here. The Kanji 忍 used for nin/shinobi simply means 'to hide' and when added with the kanji 者 for sha/mono which means 'person', thus it means 'person who hides' or 'hidden person' and thus it gives a hint at either a person who is involved in a covert activity including, but not limited to, espionage, silent assassination e.t.c or a person who actually practices invisibility through magic or camouflage. The Kanji 忍 used for nin/shinobi consists of two further kanji 刃 ('yaiba' meaning 'blade') and 心 ('kokoro' meaning 'heart') which together gives several meanings, one basic of which is 'endurance', which serves as a moral or spiritual meaning for a ninja. These are the literal meanings, while the historical meanings vary greatly over the period of time. For example, the earliest most study of it hints at ninjutsu being purely an 'art of enlightenment' or a spiritual art, practiced by warrior monks who came from China; then it took more of the form of an art of spying during 15th-17th century while in the recent times people have started calling it a martial art. But that's only a public speculation in which we mostly take one aspect of this art and ignore the others, based on our belief. If we look deep, the various aspects of this art come from different sources and thus we see no mention of ninja or shinobi before 13th century. It was during the 13th century the people who had practiced under those warrior monks from China, I mean now their descendants, they wanted to further expand on their art of war and thus they collected various teachings from China all about magic, explosives, tools and unorthodox methods used mainly in China and also some local and thus we had what we call as ninjutsu or shinobinojutsu. The people during 15th-17th century were more focused on the 'spying' aspect of the art and thus you will read in Bansenshukai that ninjutsu started before yellow emperor of China around 2800 years B.C (taking into the account the art of spying); but when you look at modern texts, they say that ninjutsu is 1000 years old, which mainly comes from the start of Togakure-ryu lineage since most people only know about it being the oldest tradition. Thus I will call 'the complete ninja/shinobi' to the one who practiced all the aspects of the art and the main purpose behind which was/is to adopt an unorthodox way of strategy or warfare, continuing on a path of self development that is different from all the others. Thus in the modern times, a ninja will be the one who does even more than the spy agent and a special forces' person, since these have become orthodox or common; my belief is that.
Thanks you. I do actually know how to spell it in several variations of the translation to English. The way I spelled it is not my preferred way, but it's the way my phone autocorrects it, and when it is constantly trying to outwit email by changing what I type to something entirely different, if it gets something somewhere near what I typed in tend not to fight it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but ninjitsu and jujitsu both share the character 術. That character can be romanized as jutsu or jitsu. Why so whiny about it?
That's my understanding too. It fascinates me when people insist on direct translations between languages hat simply don't directly translate. It's all irrelevant anyway except for fun, because there is only one art anyway. It's just viewed from many different angles and given many different labels.
Sir! I expect you know that the actual pronunciation is neither of 'u' or 'i' but it is close to 'iu' and the standard romanji for writing 術 is 'jutsu' though 'jitsu' is more popular in the international Jujitsu circles. However, in Japanese 術 'Jutsu' means 'technique' while 実 'Jitsu' means 'false' or also 'substantial'. Thus I feel it a little dishonor towards the way of ninjutsu :hat:. I know it's a little difficult to handle but for the good way of virtue please use the term 'jutsu' or 'jitsu', thanks.
Actually, 術 cannot be romanized as jitsu. The regular reading consists of the syllables じゅ (ju, or jiyu) and つ (tsu). So the romanization is jutsu, never jitsu. When some Japanese people speak, it might sound like jitsu. But it's not. And for some reason, frauds like to use the term ninjitsu.
And here you demonstrate very nicely why it's really not that relevant which way it's spelled when romanised (or romanized for our American friends). It doesn't translate directly anyway without wider context. Surely it is more disrespectful to reduce an entire art and culture down to the presence or absence of a letter u in a romanised translation of a word, than it is to understand and respect the concept but not spell it the way some people do.
Well common usage is that people use both to spell jujistu or jujutsu so as long as we're all referring to the same thing I honestly don't care. And since we're pretty explicit in differentiating when we're talking about frauds vs legit stuff it really just comes off as people being oversensitive.
Actually, there are two systems (actually three but the third is so rarely used) of romanization of Japanese. The Hepburn system and the kunrei system. Depending on which your using you'll see the romanization of 術 as jutsu, jyutsu, or jyutu.
Yes, I know. But the Hepburn system is the most used and definitely the most logical for any American or European who uses roman letters daily to write down sounds. While jutsu and jyutsu are pretty similar to a westerner (although jutsu makes much more sense to an english speaker), jyutu is confusing and makes no sense at all, since the reading of the end of that word would never ever produce the sound "tsu" for someone from the west. At any rate, it doesn't matter. Most people will use jutsu, a few will use jyutsu, and barely anybody will use jyutu. But jitsu is always wrong. It's like writing baxing instead of boxing, or King Fu instead of Kung Fu, or MMO instead of MMA.
If someone says ninjitsu and doesn't know better, it's completely fine. Who cares? But there is no harm in correcting said someone, so that he or she doesn't have to use the wrong word anymore. Right? I mean, you would react to the spelling King Fu instead of Kung Fu, right?
We're just typing words on an internet forum, and I can assure you that it doesn't affect the transmission of the art even one little bit.
Regarding the Basenshukai I can only offer my opinion on the Cummins English translation, which as we know may be slanted to his own particular point of view. Nonetheless the structure and history behind the historical work - a work put forward by Iga/koka ninja practitioners in hope for continuing contracts or patronage at a time where the need for their skills in declining, leads me to believe that it's is a ninja manual for 'commanders., or those who would employ the skills of shinobi no mono, rather than a work aimed at ninjas. It comes across as a compendium of history, precepts, skills strategies and tools. Training and specific skills are often glaringly absent, and hand - waved away with the comment 'Kuden' that is to say oral transmission. In short it's a manual that tells you how to utilise shinobi no mono in your employ , the strategies they use and what tools they need, but not how to train them, or be a ninja yourself. As for what ninjutsu is...well with the appearance of more works and manuals, historical references, it's encompasses a wide field of disciplines and skills from meteorology to psycology, pyrotechnics and espionage to name but a few. It's a pretty broad field. That being said the functions to which ninjutsu is employed is generally geared towards intelligence gathering (both overt and covert), night time assault, sabotage and in some very rare circumstances assassination. As for transmission of skills these are very obtuse. With the recent English translation by Cummins of the mizukagami scroll, which has strong connections with Mubyoshi Ryu, it seems that some Samurai schools, have ninjutsu curricula, but Mubyoshi Ryu like Katori Shinto Ryu (and possibly others) focus a great deal on 'anti - ninjutsu' making its practitioners/membes aware of how their inhabitations may be penetrated or how they may be waylaid during travelling - forewarned is forearmed As for fully fledged ninjutsu systems - Jinichi Kawakami's Banke Shinobi no Den seems to be genuine. The tradition he was transmitted, appears to be Akutagawa Ryu, for which he has historical scrolls. Some parts of the scroll apparently are similar to Koga Ninjutsu scroll that Mr Cummins uncovered in a museum - with some minor variations. However what Mr kawakami was actually taught by his medicine -peddler instructor (I forget his name) in the way of physical skills hasn't really been explained or categorised. He has done quite a few seminars (you can find them on YouTube) but what he teaches at seminars bears little resemblance to what is in the Akutagawa Ryu scroll, leading me to believe that physical skills were either transmitted orally, or are his own independent research. Curiously I'm more convinced of his shinobi skills that's his bujutsu skills. I will not go into the Togakure Ryu /bujinkan lineage - it's been done to death. I have my suspicions of what has occurred, but in the absence of evidence It would be crass to make opinion
Oh my! since I was keeping in mind 'kyojitsu', I thought kyo means truth and jitsu means false. Sorry for the inconvenience. Now since the main topic was definition to ninjutsu, I have already posted my opinion here: : http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1075008054 . It doesn't matter much if you use Jutsu or jitsu; I myself use Jitsu for Jujitsu to respect the standard personal values of its practitioners however for ninjutsu, I prefer Jutsu only. Leave it and come back to the main topic. To add to my previous explanation, 'nin' means 'to hide' and 'jutsu' means technique, thus it gives the general meaning 'techniques of hiding' and in the context of history, it generally means techniques of spying, covert activity. Also nin/shinobi is used as a short form for ninja/shinobi-no-mono and thus ninjutsu also means 'techniques of the ninja'. Now waiting for others to put some light into this.
I know that in my years in the Genbukan and with Tanemura Soke, he adamantly would correct the spelling of "jitsu" to "jutsu" and he often defined "jitsu" as the seed of a fruit, truth or reality and "jutsu" of course as art or technique. If you have ever seen the samurai jujutsu series, on the interview tape he goes into detail of the kanji as well.
No, it doesn't. 忍 means endurance, patience, forbearance, or self restraint. You'll see this kanji as part of a compound quite often and it usually means to endure, to put up with, to persevere If it's in its verb form 忍ぶ, it can mean to conceal, or to hide.
Do you actually speak/read Japanese? Because there seems to be a confidence to your definitions that is not borne out by what they actually are and I wondered where it was coming from
Regarding Akutagawa Ryu Ninjutsu, here is what is written in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten: Akutagawa Ryuu (芥川流) 芥川九郎右衛門義綱，一に刑部左衛門義任。飛竜丸ともいう。忍術は甲賀流の系統である。楠不伝正辰に学び、南木流軍学も伝えた。寛文十年に美濃戸田光永に仕え、以降，戸田家が鳥羽、さらに信州松本に移封されるにともなって、共に移った。五代目九郎右衛門義矩-六代目極人の父子は、天保末年の戸田図書事件の御家騒動に連坐して、一時囚禁されたが、安政二年ゆるされた。 Akutagawa Kurouemon Yoshizuna, hitotsu ni Gyoubusaemon Yoshimasa. Hiryuugan to mo iu. Ninjutsu ha Koga Ryuu no keitou de aru. Kusunoki Fuden Masatatsu ni manabi, Minaki Ryuu Gungaku mo Tsutaeta. Kanbun Juunen ni Mino Toda Mitsunaga ni tsukae, ikou , Toda-ke ga Toba, sara ni Shinshuu Matsumoto ni ihou sareru ni tomo natte, tomo ni utsutta. Godaime Kurouemon Yoshinori –Rokudaime Gyokunin no fushi ha, Tenpou matsunen no Toda tosho jiken no goke soudou ni renza *****, ittoki shuukin sareta ga, Ansei ni-nen yurusareta. Akuagawa Kurouemon Yoshizuna, previously Gyoubusaemon Yoshimasa. Also called Hiryuugan (flying/jumping dragon cicrle)). This ninjutsu is a part of Koga Ryu. Kusunoki Fuden Masatatsu studied (this school). Was taught within the Minaki Ryu military school. During the 10th year of the Kanbun era (approx. 1671) he served under Toda Mitsunaga from Mino and later, when the Toda family was forced to relocate from Toba to Shinshuu Matsumoto, he moved with them. 5th head was Kurouemon Yoshinori. 6th head Gyokunins son was part of the revolt ”Toda Tosho-incident” during the last year of the Tenpou-era and was imprisoned for awhile, but was pardoned during the second year of the Ansei-era (1855-1856). Sorry for the sloppy translation but I translated from Japanese to Swedish and then to English. :hat: I have been told Hatsumi sensei has the scrolls for this ryuha. Not sure about Jinchi Kawakami but his taijutsu gives me serious doubts...If thats the level Akutagawa ninja have Im surprised if even 1 survived to transmit it. Regards / Skuggvarg
