Lessons from UFC 159 for the self-defense minded

Yes, because their training gives them 4.5 of the 6 things I mention. (I'm giving them 0.5 for haov there as they are used to fighting from clinches).

Put a fit young person from a good SD group and they meet 6 of the 6, because that's specifically what they train for, and like a Thai boxer they train to knee and hit hard.

 

but stick both in the street, where theres no helmet or gloves for either side, who would come out on top?

I suppose it comes down to which is actually better prepared for the assault, the SIM guy who has done the senarios days so is more prepared for a specific type of assault but who knows even whilst injuries happen you his training partners arent really trying to permanently injury him, or the Thai or MMA guy who is used to fighting someone who is really trying to take his head off, or break him in half but who hasnt done as much specific scenario training

 

and like the Thai fighter are they used to an opponent they are facing who isnt trying to make them prepared for an event, who isnt a training partner no matter how hard the sparring is, but is actually someone they have never met, who is tying to knock them out, knee their face off etc and doesnt really care about their well being at all?

 

My own experience disagrees with that, the ability to orientate and manage yourself to the situation is the initial factor, once this is delt with, and many people do this naturally, then its who has got the best physical skill set for the situation that is the decisive factor.

 

Well the big difference between the two is in the prefight and how affected they are by it, and as a result whether they get lined up for a sucker assault or fail to preempt or fail to spot the telegraphs etc.

But apart from that you are comparing a Thai or MMA fighter with a SD student. What % of participants in Thai boxing or MMA clubs are used to fighting someone who is really trying to take their head off or break them in half?

 

There not comparable though are they, the SD guy has simulated fighting, the Thai guy actually has had a fight, but only in limited rules.

Ideally you want both, so my point that SD training is best as addition after the hard work of getting their delivery system down still stands.

 

Going off personal expereince in the thai and kick boxing clubs i have trained at, more have had fights than havent, in the MMA gyms less have fought MMA but since the original post mentioned a good thai fighter i thought we were talking about guys who had actually had fights,

But if we were not its probably the same number as self defence students who have actually done a SIM day with full contact and limited gear,

 

The local chav mma place near me has people competing after less then 8 weeks training.

Pretty much 100% of people in my gym have competed, but mostly just in GI and nogi grappling, one of my best mates, said he found semi pro mma fights less nerve wracking then grappling comps as the standard is higher in pure grappling comps.

 

My mistake, I thought the discussion had shifted to which was better for self defence - training in a good mma club or thai club, or training in a good SD club with all its bells and whistles. My point being that a higher % of the latter will experience intense training of the sort I've discussed whereas I think only a small % of those that go to the former actually go the whole nine yards in the ring.

 

grappling would probably come under the heading of someone actively trying to break you in half, but personally id have to disagree, MMA and thai always scares me more than grappling, i completed in grappling a fair bit, only ever did a little kick boxing and one chinese bare hand comp and that was enough for me
I think MMA and thai are similar to those SIM days

 

Wait til you get aggressive enough for us to use you as a point attacker. The role playing bad guys get a really tough workout when we have people who are prepared to hit. We do occasionally get KO even with us being careful around the head.

 

I'm quite surprised. I was under the impression that lots of people were joining these places to train (because they are fashionable) but not to fight. I hardly ever see anyone walking round with black eyes or broken up faces.

 

I wouldn't say that's a equal comparison, its only valid if the SD club can teach striking, clinch and ground to the same standard plus the SD specific material ontop.

If not it just depends on what your priorities are in training, and what the most efficient manor of training for those goals is.

For most people there's more developmental scope in the actual physical delivery systems.

 

Having trained at a good MMA club but only competed in grappling there i can say that being part of a fighters training camp, getting in the ring and sparring with proven fighters is an intense as any kind of self defence stuff i have done, more so because a lot of the up and coming fighters are looking to get noticed by the coaches in sparring, and a lot of the pros when getting ready for fights really step it up, its not going the whole nine yards but it is intense enough that most of the guys who had had situations out on the street have handled them easily

Now admittedly my self defence stuff isnt SIM based, but i have done a little bit to make comparisons: fence training with levo (who is qualified by geoff thompson to teach his stuff) self defence training with a coach he brought in for several months who also was andre winners first trainer, that was years ago more resently multiple opponent work and scenario with another MMA and karate teacher who does door work and been in the security line for decades

 

I would agree with you, but in semi pro mma this guy had good striking and great grappling, now when he's fighting against brown and blackbelts, he's only ok at grappling compared to his opponents, its more of a fear of not being good at what you love then being physically scared of being hurt.

 

In some people from a certain background, its a rite of passage to be a cagefighter, that's why there's a glut of poor quality low level events.

 

It's not an either/or choice - certainly not for me

If you do make it such a distinction it worth bearing in mind that the LEO training is almost identical to a DART sim only with guns. It's a quick way to preparation for those who cannot fight. If you can fight you may find three partners KO'd in the first training drill as may or may not have happened to someone.....

 

I think here is where we'll have to agree to disagree.

In SD the physical striking and clinching skills are not as important as the SD/SP specific material. The fight winner in an SD scenario is not decided by who has the best striking, clinch or ground skills, but who is best prepared for the prefight 'interview' and the opening 2 seconds and knows their way around HAOV tactics. You can be a fantastic fighter and go down straight away because you mucked up that initial moment, or an average striker and win because you didn't.

SD groups like all MA groups will teach striking, clinch and ground to varying standards. If you went into an MMA fight with a known weakness in one of those areas you are setting yourself up for a loss and a beating. In SD you have to orientate training according to the most likely scenarios and ground is not one of these. If you were teaching a physical SD skills to a LEO group the ground syllabus would have greater emphasis and cut into the striking syllabus, because arresting and restraining means that type of struggle is more likely.

This does not mean that there is no physical developmental aspect to training SD. It's just that the physical side of it is orientated differently, just like Thai orientates different to MMA, and TKD orientates differently, and EKF karate, and Enshin and so forth.

You get good at what you train for. There are lots of benefits to training in MMA or Thai boxing, and improved fighting ability that can be used in SD is one of them, but from my perspective the best way to get good at the physical element of SD is to train the six I have mentioned. I also accept that the vast majority of martial arts that advertise themselves as 'for self defence' (and I'm including RBSD, Kung Fu, TKD, Hapkido, Aikido, Karate, TKD etc here) don't train many of those six.