Less than 4th dan school owners...

Gang,

Maybe this falls under the "McDojang"/ "McInstructor" category, but I am more interested in the 'legality' issue.

Why is it that a less than 4th dan (let's assume WTF/KTF TKD) black belt has a school up and running? What exactly are the requirements for one to open a school in the country that you reside in? I've seen several people instructing their own <or heading one for a master who not about> schools/clubs/flaschanties (no, that's not a real word) that have not attained a 4th dan...nor a graduate of an intructors' training course.

Curious, any facts?


Cheers

DH

 

Believe it or not, there isn't a state in the union that has ANY formal licensing or requirements for opening a dojo/dojang/kwoon or studio. You could go to MartialArtsMart.com and buy yourself a "grandmaster" style blackbelt, get a nice Adrian Romain black belt certificate in the tuskahoma system (or better yet, just print your own diploma on powerpoint for free) and BOOM-- you are a certified martial arts master.

Make up a name! I recommend
"Kara-kwon-chuan"

 

Owning don't require rank at all. I have 2 friends who are 4th dan school owners, but they both hire 4th rank and higher to be head instructor. 4th dan below head instructor is definitly a Mc Dojo sign indeed. Anyway if there good enough as a teacher I really don't think rank matter, but if there good enough it shouldnt be a problem to get 4th dan or higher either.

 

No law in Canada says you have to be a certain rank to open/run a martial arts school.

 

I know some excellent 2nd and 3rd dan instructors.

 

Indeed, i witness a few lower rank instructor myself that teach fairly well. However keep in mind as head instructor you have to design a school curriculum that promotes your student effectivly through training. Lower rank arent quiet ready for that in most cases. Anyway if they are that high up there then they should have no problem proving it kukiwon. Most people open a school and hide there rank through the back door, is those you have to watch out for.

 

I see the same.. good 2nd/3rd dan instructors who tech us sometimes. I don't know what the rules are to be honest but i know we are taught sometimes by some very good 2nd dan grades.

 

there is no rule. if someone wants to start a school, they have to take care of the paperwork and register the school, but nobody will ask u what rank u have got.

but then again, there are so many people in here who said that there are people with a black belt which, by the way, they don't deserve. i guess, it all comes down to the instructor's skills and ability to pass on his/her knowledge, no matter the rank.

 

I concur fully that there are, in fact, very good instructors that are sub-4th dan. However, that is not what I was interested in. I am concerned with the standardisation of the education (or certification) of instructors in the martial arts ... more so that of TKD.

In our countries educators must attain professional licensure from provinc/state/State governing bodies, pass X amount of standardised tests/courses/endorsements, before teaching in a profession that is:

A: Not respected
B: Well underpaid

I was just curious as to the 'legal' issues of running a school, as in Korea (unless there is a loophole I am unaware of) you must be at least 4th dan and pass Kukkiwon's instructor training course before opening your doors.

I can't think of any 'Mcdojo' public/private educational facitilities in my area that adhere to governmental mandates of certification levels of their staff. Schools that don't, on the other hand.....that's another story.

Cheers,

DH

 

Well isn't there a difference between instructors who teach in public/private schools and instructors who teach MA's? For that matter any instructor, dance, hunting, driving. While my personal feeling is that a poor MA instructor will be winnowed out of the teaching profession, I don't know of any set rank requirement.

 

Well...here in Iceland, there is one 4th dan instructor. No one above 4th dan lives in the country. He is the master of his school. The other head-instructors are 1-2 dan with one being 3rd dan. Also, TKD schools here are only subdivisions of general sports teams. Usually, a single organisation has a soccer team, basketball team and whatever else they see fit. So its not so much opening a schools as starting a sub-division here. Of course, all the schools (except the 4th dan one I think, not sure) have foreign grandmasters who ranked the teachers and most of which used to live here. For example, my school was started by Michael Jörgensen, who is now training the norwegian national sparring team.

So if it were illegal to run a school below 4th dan, there would be only one school

 

I think that without a national (or even better, an international) set of criteria for grading and for curriculum, you will always see different ranks teaching at different schools. It also really depends on the area. And, as far as I know there really aren't many instructor's courses routinely available (although the WTF does offer one in Korea if you sign up early enough anbd can afford it.)

I also believe that it really depends on the instructors, and not just their rank. There are lots of 4th dans and higher who did the minimum time requirements and the maximum politics requirements and shot through the ranks promotions... and they aren't very good instructors, let alone one that should own a school. There are other people out there who have been doing it for years, and just haven't ranked up.

In our area, when our school moved in, the master (5th dan) wanted to open up schools, so he handpicked a couple of great red belts and put them through an intensive few years. When they were promoted to 1st dan, they were assigned to a very talented 3rd dan and opened up two schools. They provided the bulk of the training and were supervised by the 3rd dan and by the master very closely. When they were promoted to 2nd dan, they were given a bit more freedom. Today, they are are both 4th dans and run their own schools... doing the same kind of work they were doing as 1st dans. One of them is my master... and he was just inducted in the Action Magazine Hall of Fame with a Spirit award for outstanding contributions to the martial arts. He has over 25 years experience in the martial arts and has never pushed for rank... compared to many of his peers who are ranked higher!

I really think it's a good idea to check out a school and the instruction without ONLY basing it on a person's rank...


On a side note, New York State has proposed licensing all martial arts instructors through the state. This scares me because I don't think they can do it without overly generalizing the standards and making it a money-based, hoop-jumping exercise (ask me... I'm a NY state certified teacher... it never ends!)

 

Re: Re: Less than 4th dan school owners...

Just sounds like another way for the state to suck money out of people....

 

TKD has an absolutely hideous history as far as governing bodies goes.

But did Ueshiba, Funakoshi or Gen. CHoi start teaching with qualifications they paid through the nose for from some governing organisation?

Whether you become an instructor should be the decision of your master or your instructor, not some pot-bellied public servent.

 

AMEN BROTHER...Preach that WORD all day long!

Ha ha

 

If you put a 4th Dan minimum requirment on Dojos I think we'd all see a lot more 4th dan owners in a very short period of time

There is a lot more do with being a martial arts teacher than Dan ranking. That's one of the last things I looked at when searching for a coach.

Why do you need someone to tell you when you can become a teacher? If you feel you are profficient at your art and have the skills necessary to pass it on then go for it. There is too much aritocracy in martial arts if you ask me. All these holier than thou attitudes remind me of the catholic church, but I won't get started on that.

As consumers we are responsible for reseaching what we buy because in the end we are the only ones to blame when bad decisions are made.

 

Amen to that too Terry!!!
Reputations are easy to build...and there are two kinds you can construct as an instructor/owner...

A good one...and a bad one...it's really pretty simple...the hard part is that students and parents can't often tell who's legit and who's not...

 

1) can they teach

2) can they fight

3) who care what rank they are

 

First, I don't know about you, but I paid next-to-squat for my training, and about nothing for my certification and dans. Of the 5-6 years it took between my 3rd to 4th dan, I paid about $225 total....and it was KTF/WTF.

Pot-bellied public servant? Who are you thinking of, because I know of nobody that fits that description at Kukkiwon?

And yes, your master has a good say so in whether or not you can/may/will instruct, but my question was about one opening a school with total autonomy - hence, little or no guidance. Which brings me to Terry Matthes's statement:

"Why do you need someone to tell you when you can become a teacher? If you feel you are profficient at your art and have the skills necessary to pass it on then go for it."

Yes, go for it. However, there are more than those that think they are, than those that know they are not that (yet).

Again, all I would like to know is that if educators in (seemingly) all fields must satiate a certain standard, then why not TKD? In fact, nearly any profession, certification is not only encouraged, but a legal mandate.

Oh, and Terry, absolutely we'd see more 4th dans....I remember a school run by an extremely famous MA (been on the cover of several MA magazines, and adverts) expediting his head instructor's dan advancement in order to open more $chool$....and yes, I was there, so I know it occured. So, I guess that shall put a nix on the idea that instructing should be based on your master's say-so.

Now, devil's advocate....I've come across masters with all the bells-and-whistles of certification and umpteen years experience...that were, let's just say....not exactly stellar in their field.


Cheers,

DH

 

1) can they teach

2) can they fight

3) who cares what rank they are