Osu, Am I dreaming here? Somebody slaps me!!! You are advocated bone on bone blocks, attempts to break toes or fingers, and kidney kicks on your PARTNERS in the dojo??? You are also saying that if you can hide or camouflage an intention to injure behind a layer of incompetence, then it is okay, it was not your fault!!! Bloody hell, that's akin to declaring war... it would not end well in my dojo! Have you considered how easy it is to intentionally sweep an ankle and wreck it, or "miss" a low kick and whack the side of your knee? even with broken toes, and hide it behind a wall of confusion and false excuses! Osu!
Alas, we're not allowed throws either. In saying "a touch painful" I was being polite - its bloody murder is what it is. Regardless of whether or not he's going all out, its clear: - Its obviously his responsibility to fight above my level and stretch my abilities. - But the way to do that is to go (around about...?) 10% above the partner's level. This clown goes about 60% above. While there have been lots of different views expressed here its been re-assuring for me to realise: - No, this sort of thing is not normal, and - Yes, my Sensei could have handled this better. Nuts to knitting...
Is it just me or is a forty one year old man not being able to deal with one immature little bully a touch odd? Could someone please explain what is being discussed here? Bullying issues or sparring against people of shodan or above? to the title of the post. it's a challange maybe ask the other blackbelts to go harder on you, train through it.
he sounds like he just can judge or handle himself. does he do this to other students? talk to them see what they say? you could then raise it legitimately with your sensei and get this black belt warned.
I'm not saying my opinion on the matter, I'm saying what our sensei says is perfectly allowed. He's used these techniques on students, including myself and when I asked him if it's allowed, he said it is perfectly allowed. He even taught the class to use these techniques, including the one I mentioned of blocking with your elbow. The kidney kicks we practice on each other with padding so it doesn't hurt as much. We're not allowed to go full-contact on each other but if we do some contact at the kidneys, the sensei has never stepped in. At most, he tells us once we are done sparring that a certain kick was not allowed. The exception is if the sparring partner says they're hurt, then the sensei steps in. As an informal rule, the sparring partner who threw the kick provides some ice packs and such but the sensei also examines them. Actually our sensei has never brought that issue up with us and I never considered it until you mentioned it just now. He encourages us to use ashi barai in sparring, even if some of the students don't fully know how to do it. I don't like it when my sparring partner does an ashi barai and messes it up, intentionally or unintentionally. However, consider this situation: you're sparring with your partner and the sensei says over and over "use ashi barai, use ashi barai" when you may not know how to use it. When we practice ashi barai, we're told to go full force and take out their foot. When the black-belts and sensei practices with us, they use ashi barai full force. Our sensei told us there are 2 uses for ashi barai. First, is just a light tap and it's meant to serve as a distraction. Whether that's true or not I'm not sure as it's never distracted me. Second, is to use it full force and take out their foot. If it hurts the sparring partner, usually the sensei says the ashi barai was legit, however, if for example, I did an ashi barai full force at my sparring partner's calf, then the sensei may interfere by saying it's not allowed. If I do it hard enough and hurt my partner, then I get in trouble, which is fair as I did it improperly. The knee blocks we were also taught to use during sparring and again, our sensei showed how they effective they are by using them on us at times. We didn't practice them on each other full force but we did practice them with no contact outside of sparring. During sparring, we're allowed to use them full force. When our sensei spars us and blocks with the elbow, he's always said it's our fault if we get hurt, not his and then escorts us to get some ice. If I use an elbow block and accidentally break my partner's toe, the sensei never says I'm in the wrong, it's always the other partner's fault. Even if the partner gets angry at me, the sensei says they have no right to be angry because I performed a legit move properly and they messed up. I always thought these kind of blocks were dirty but allowed and used by many people. In tournaments, students from other karate schools sometimes used them and the referees and judges never said anything about it, so I thought you're allowed to use them. In all honesty, I thought people on this forum were taught them and may consider them dirty but still may use them.
Osu, The techniques are legit, yet it is not really nice to use them in the dojo with training partners; they are not the enemy! There usually is a gentleman's agreement not to use them in friendly sparring, full contact or not. Mistakes happen, and that is okay, but if someone uses them intentionally (they are meant to hurt or injure), then all agreements are off... Full contact keeps people more honest IMHO! Whenever I use ashi barai or other sweeps in friendly sparing, I am extremely careful to do the technique so as not to injure my partner; giving away signals tat it is coming, and holding the partner down to the floor to help with the breakfall. Even in competition (I don't compete any longer) or for grading tests, the kumite can be hard, but is not intended to maim! I think your sensei needs a couple of his toes legitimately nicked... for a little while it won't be fun to give class & he may reassert his position! Osu!
The breakfall is understandable and something we try to do and if we don't even try, then the sensei steps in. I do try to help with the breakfall because despite the floor being padded, it's still a fall that could knock the wind out of the partner or cause injury. When brown-belts and black-belts from other dojos where they studied Shotokan, Goju-Ryu or Wado-Ryu and come to ours, they tell their sparring partners that ashi barai has to be done full-force, even before being told by the sensei. We were also told to make the ashi barai come as a surprise, I mean you can do "fakes" but when the real one comes, it's meant to be a surprise. I've always thought that since other styles echoed this same principle, then it must be true. They don't always use the elbow or knee blocks every time but some black-belts in particular (the ones from other dojos) sometimes love to use these blocks. One of them in particular who no longer comes used to use these blocks as often as he could against anyone and if they caused pain, he said it indicates the technique was done properly and we were whiners (he used other words I won't repeat) for not continuing. He was told to stop sparring a few times so I'm not sure if he was told to never come back or just decided not to. Another black-belt that is currently at our dojo gives "fakes" for ashi barai but when he does the real one, he either helps breakfall or if you don't fall, he goes straight at you and may try for another one. He doesn't do knee blocks but he often does elbow blocks. Some other brown or black belts refuse to do elbow and knee blocks. When I was sparring with one, I did a knee block and he got angry until the sensei says it was legit and he sees no problem with doing it. Later, that black-belt did an ashi barai full force. This will certainly give me something to think about though. On a slightly different topic, at your dojo, do you practice kihons or idos using elbows, such as hijiate or empi uchi? We practice them for self-defense reasons (although in sparring we don't use elbows are strikes) as well as for practicing parts of katas, such as geki sai dai ichi and geki sai dai ni. For purely self-defense reasons, our sensei allows us to practice full-force elbow strikes on punching bags or large hand-held pads.
Osu, Yes, we practice hiji blocks and strikes. We use the strikes in kumite too, but the distancing is only good for taller students that have a smaller opponent coming inside really (have to be extra careful not to hit the head then...) Injuring kumite opponents does not make sense to me; you can do hard contact without injuring anyone (it hurts, but that's part of conditioning) --- elbow blocks are designed to injure and are best kept outside the dojo IMHO. They are bad form in the dojo! Knee blocks only injure other knees or weak shins and are often seen used by beginners when they cannot really take any more leg kicks. For me, it is a signal that a beginner has has enough & to lighten up or quit targeting that leg for a while. Good luck with your training. Osu! PS: Please have a look at this thread by BigMikey http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074475242&postcount=1 ; he is facing similar circumstances (a big bruiser visiting the dojo), and tries to make the best of it to enrich his karate.
doesn't sound like whinging to me. Sounds like your instructor doesn't really know what they are doing and can't control his students. If he has elected to run light contact sparring for his class then that is what he should be running. If he was running knockdown then that's what he should be running. Having some spazzing mess between the two benefits nobody - and thats your teacher's fault not yours or the guy who's wailing on you.
1. I think by the description this guy is more than "one immature "little" bully" and 2. He stated he was trying to be respectful. I have seen this before, and yes its usually the younger guys who get it in their head there the tough guys and they do tend to pick on the older guys who they feel cant fight back at the same level. Older guys even in the beginning tend to have respect for others ( not always but most of the time) just cause they have been around longer. One of my students ( san dan) and his son decided to take up Judo. They ran into the same thing. My student is 45, his son is 16. The Junior instructor about 25 would just wail on the father because "he could" . Dad was being respectful and did not use his karate knowledge, he talked to the sensei about it and he shrugged his shoulders and said deal with it and suck it up. Next go around when the young instructor moved in for a heavy take down the father kneed him in the chest, slapped him across the side of the head hard enough to knock him down and it took the guy a few seconds to get his bearings to stand up. Then he quit. THis same dojo a year later a friend of mine who is 73 and trained in karate for 52 years joined the same dojo. Total coincidence, he received the same treatment. His answer was to talk to the young man, who simply said, "Old man, you should not be here" .... so the next time the young guy took the old guy down he found himself rolled over and on the bottom end of two good punches to the head, he also quit then. ( By the way.. the 73 year old is in phenominal shape, he trains dailly on his own, makiwara, weights, kata, I think when he joined this dojo he was about 69 to 71, I wont tell you his real name but we call him "Iron Man" and it was a name he earned. Many have told me that this man is not what he appears to be but I have seen him in action on occasion and its down right scarry) If you ran into him on the street, you would not guess him to be over 60. He often gets asked for ID when asking for the seniors discount hahahahha So What are we discussing..????? Sparring with Black belts or Bullying.... exactly....
Thats also happened to a Sempai of mine but it was more nothing he did was right at the Judo club because of his Karate experience, He's a Nidan and I've never seen him perform a bad throw in the 10 years I've trained with him. I would suggest gaining a general consensus on this particular black belt and see if your being singled out. then raise it again with your sensei in a calm manor. To Jbomb I'm sorry if this guy has ruined you opinion on Karate too.
Whoa there OP, kick this dude in the leg then uppercut him in the nuts, should sort that problem out, you may have to find somewhere new to train though. Though seriously, at 187cm and 94kg I am quite large and if I spar with a person who is a lot smaller than me I always allow them to dictate the contact level first, if they go light so will I, if they go hard I will too. Sounds like your training partner likes to spazz out on people smaller than him.
I think alot has been said already that I agree with. First- your sensei sounds like a jerk. Second- I'm one of those people that crave good hard contact. I normally go as hard as I feel the other person can take. Some people like it and some don't. If people have a real issue with the levels of contact and say something I will moderate the level. Though sometimes these people get surprised when I later avoid them in sparring. There was one girl who kept getting angry at me for hitting her in contact sparring irrespective of how hard it was, I was hitting her softer than I sparred with 10 year olds! She then got angry when the next week all I did was dance around her for the whole time we sparred, just shows you can't always win. Three- as someone who's often hitting people hard there are a few ways to best bring up issues around contact with one person. During a class, right before starting sparring and during sparring are innapropriate times to do it... Approach the person when they are warming up and explain your situation in a way that doesn't paint them as a bad guy- no one likes that. Explain that you want to improve your sparring, maybe by working on new techniques, and getting some advice. Ask if the person can drop the intensity and contact of the sparring and help you develop new skills. If they don't comply- kick them in the nuts during sparring because they are a real douche. Finally- you've explained that your club does "light" contact sparring, you've been there for years as well. If your not training for a competition etc then you have the right NOT to spar. Try and talk to the guy as it's clearly impacting on you (or you wouldn't have posted) if it doesn't get better- refuse to spar the black belt in question. If there are issues with you instructor when you do this- you need to find a new club
I agree, in fact many do not know this but in the Okinawa clubs of years ago sparring was not done... WHY? BECAUSE THE OBJECTIVE WAS A ONE BLOW KNOCKOUT OR KILL SHOT... Sparring at anything less that full out was considered counter productive. I do remember a world tournament 30 years ago where two fighters who had fought for a medal were sitting at the round up party after the tournament and the winner of the first place kept saying " YUP, sure whooped your butt" ... it got so bad they went at it for real.... and yes.. the other guy won in the real life match... So it all depends on what you are training for, I assume at 41 you are there solely to compete so you should be able to opt out of the sparring. The Okinawans maintain that true self defence is not in sparring.. it is in the kata. ( HMMM maybe this is another discussion hahahhahah)
Hi, I'm new here and was interested to see the various discussions around this issue. I'm goju ryu and our Sensei believes that some contact is a good thing but never to the degree that this one sounds like he does. I too have one black belt that I hate sparring due to his contact - he is 22 I'm 51 - he's nidan, I'm 1st Kyu. I can take a lot but I am no match for him. While I expect to be tested and have no issue with that, I find the way he dishes it out to be very disrespectful to me. Lets be clear here, just because you have a black belt does not mean (in my opinion) that you automatically deserve respect - you don't - respect is earnt not a right. My sensei believes that black belts assist, teach, guide and set an example. They set the bar when sparring too - not the lower belt. So if this guy hits you hard then he should be okay with that in return... I love the 2 examples Mike gave of his students dishing it out to that sensei - good on them!! I personally would love to be able to do that and if I could I would. The other option I have considered myself is simply bowing out and refusing to spar him because of the contact. If that cost me a grading then so be it. Also consider this... Shijin Gushiken, a highly accomplished karate master in Okinawa, summed up his philosophy as "having a skilled fist but never using it." There is a lot of good advice here - you need to pick something (which I think you have) that works for you or something that your willing to try. If this continues then stepping out may be the only other alternative if you want to stay in the club but don't be afraid to try another club either. I have changed because what the club I am currently in offers me a lot more than my previous club - personally I wanted to be technically good and feel that I could defend myself if I needed to - my old club did not give me that confidence.... Anyway that is just my 2 cents worth...
This has always been an issue with Training Halls that utilize light/semi contact sparring. One person strikes lightly, another not so light or even full contact. The training methodology really stinks. My only advice would be either A) you just don't spar with this guy or the prefered B) when someone gets after you then you give it back in spades
It is a problem sometimes that youngsters forget to be be gentle/helpful with the training of the older newer students. I also suggest a gentle discussion re how to improve your sparring. Ask the BB in question how he would approach fighting with himself and what you could do to gain those skills. Perhaps he could be asked if the two of you could role play so he could show you how to deal with someone who has has skills. Maybe you could even turn this guy into a comrade that takes you under his wing once he see's that you have respect for his talents. Oddly enough I went back to visit my old karate instructor (personal friend still) and joined the class as a white belt (had been green belt before I left and before BB in two other systems). One of the twenty somethings took it as a chance to kick about an old guy and was surprised when I took out his standing leg (oops you aren't allowed to sweep the legs anymore?). Sometimes you need to be a dick if the guy won't listen. You might need to do the same although in the short term it might mean only working with other BB until you get a bit better timing, strength and confidence. You know the old saying... it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog :' ) Don't give up until you try a few of the suggested strategies from this forum. If nothing works then you always know the real ultimate solution... try judo :' ) LFD
Hmmm... sometimes JBomb123, people use the wearing pads as an excuse to hit harder, but the skills developed and tested through sparring in karate should be the same skills that you need when not wearing any protective padding. How would you spar with no padding on against this black belt? Now imagine he had a knife (e.g. training knife). How would you spar? You must protect yourself at all times... perhaps you might be in the mental condition to trade blows... would you think it a good idea to trade blows with a knife? Many years ago a friend of mine in karate used to hit people too hard in sparring, I went out of karate a month or so with a bruised rib from a hit from him and he did the same to at least one other. It wasn't intentional that he hurt people, but he had found a good place to hit and unfortunately, he needed more control when striking there. Anyway, there was a tournament and the fellow my friend was up against was very evasive with his footwork. My friend hit him a few times but the hits were always on the arms or elbows or places like that and always at off angles so not full power hits. Then the guy counter punched my friend in the face, my friend went down. My friend got so mad he got up off the ground too quickly and all red faced, then his face turned all white and he passed out. So my friend was knocked out. So always protect yourself... being a hard to hit target and protect your vitals. Counter punch, don't trade blows...
Interesting thought there, to fight as if I had no protective gear... Also, changing schools really is a last resort - my kids are well settled in the kids class and I really don't want to disrupt that. If this jerk won't respond to the request to help/coach me then I may as well give him a few things to think about as well. Because I'm fairly new to martial arts I wasn't really sure what was considered "normal". Obviously every school is different, but even so its been reassuring to have confirmed that yes, this guy is a tool!
Seconded!!! When I trained with some viets these guys were not so big on the pads and thought that people wearing them often took liberties. One of the local lads used to pad up to the hilt and hit people too hard (not acknowledging counters). One viet instructor pointed this out to him and the guy told him he was mistaken. Bad move. The viet guy said ok, stay padded up and I will show you where you are missing things :evil: Needless to say when the padded lad got up off the floor a few times he seemed to have learnt the error of his ways. By the way, have you watched how the other senior ranks/your sensei deal with this guys level of aggression??? Might be some clues there on what to do. fwiw LFD
