Kuk Sool Won franchise

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by tatar, Dec 15, 2008.

  1. Unjeesunsu

    Unjeesunsu Valued Member

    Once you tested the 2nd time and actually received your black belt, your certificate and your new number you become a student of Kuk Sa Nim. Until then you deal with your instructor/school owner.

    I know of a case where 2 students, ready (actually not ready)to test, asked for their money back because the instructor was overwhelmed by teaching and forgot to teach those 2 students entire forms and techniques. They had no option of getting their training from somebody else, asked for their money back, got it (from the instructor) and left KSW for good. The case never made it to HQ because those 2 threatened to tell HQ what’s going on in that school.

    I wonder if there is a part in this new franchise agreement that tells school owners and/ or instructors "if you don't teach properly you are out".

    By the way, Master Dickson Kunz is out.

  2. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth


    Yes I did! Have they (WKSA) got one of those in the Lobby too? :evil:
  3. Renegade2

    Renegade2 Valued Member

    Thats all very well, but as (so I am told, but please correct me if I have wrong information) the WKSA says that testing fees must be paid direct to WKSA, how can they justify turning it back to the school owner when the student no longer has an "official" WKSA school to train at? I know that the BB candidates app states that the fee is non-refundable, but considering that the fee has to be paid as soon as you wish to start testing, (which for a DBN, can be a soon as 18 months after beginning training) and that you could easily be testing for another two years, it seems a bit unfair for HQ to take the attitude that its just "hard luck" when the unsuspecting student find themself in this situation. After all, a lot can change in two years!
    In fact, from my past legal experience in the UK, I suspect that the application would come under the heading of an "Unfair contract" and the org would be forced by law to issue some kind of refund, or allow the student to continue testing, even if they were training with a "non WKSA" school. And why not? Why does it matter who trains you, so long as you are up to standard?
    By the way, apparently, WKSA rules also state that any school owner who leaves the org or closes a school must return any fees paid by students to the school, (by which I presume they mean unused lesson fees and coloured belt testing fees, which of course is reasonable in the case of school closure) and make sure that they do nothing to alienate the student from the WKSA. Shame that they don't apply the same rule to themselves don't you think?

    What do you mean by "ready". Did the students actually believe that they had learnt everything they needed? That seems unlikely, as the syllabus is public knowledge. I find it hard to believe that a student could get that far without asking why they had not yet learnt the relavant material?

    Or was it a case that the student thought that they were entitled to test because thay had the right number of stripes? If that was the case they should have had it explained to them that there is a minimum number of tests but that promotion is NOT automatic. Neither should it be IMO.
  4. Unjeesunsu

    Unjeesunsu Valued Member


    Of course you are right. If the school closes down and students don’t have another place to train and paid their way through various stages of testing and /or their BB fee, they indeed get a raw deal and an exception to return the fee should be made. Somehow I think it should be the school owner’s responsibility. Just imagine how much money this could be, depending on the amount of students enrolled. No wonder HQ insists that all fees are non refundable.

    In the case that I’ve mentioned, it turned out that both students never bothered to learn much about the curriculum, following their instructor blindly and yes, actually thought they learned everything they needed. The entire story about what and how it happened is a long one, off topic (already). If you need to know I can send you an e-mail or…...since this is a quite interesting subject, a new thread could be started.
    Fact is that schools are closing and Masters are leaving and a great number of students could be affected by this.

  5. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth


    Just because a Master leaves WKSA a particular organisation, it doesn't necessarily mean that (s)he will stop training in and teaching martial arts.

    So if they keep their school open, albeit under a different name and/or association, students will still be able to train under that Master, especially if their loyalties and trust are with him, rather than some organisation or other that they may, in reality, know very little about - other than what they can read on that organisation's fliers or website etc.
  6. Unjeesunsu

    Unjeesunsu Valued Member

    Of course if the school owner separates himself from the WKSA he or she can still train and teach and loyal students will stay right where they are.

    The point Renegade2 addressed was what if the school closes its doors and the students have no other “official” WKSA school to train at, what becomes of the money the students have invested in their training and can they continue to train in a non KSW school to basically finish what they started and receive their belt. At least that’s how I understand it.

    We are at the point here, in our school, where we have to plan on the “what if”. Not a single one of our students wants to quit or leave if the “Won” chooses to separate them selves from us or if we choose to tell the Won bye-bye.

    When all this crap with the franchise first started I was in a state of panic but have indeed calmed down a lot since. Not being part of the Won anymore might not be more than loosing an Uncle you cared for deeply but then you go to the funeral and after a time of mourning you’ll get over it and move on.

    We will keep teaching and we will keep training. It’s in our blood just as it is in each one of you out there. At least that’s how I see it.

  7. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Yes, very true!

    Yes, I can see that would be a bit of a bummer, a bit like paying for a new settee only to find that the company goes out of business before delivering it to you. I suppose that's a problem with having to pay well in advance for anything. When I have to do that, I try to use my credit card if at all possible. That way I can claim the money back. I don't suppose that's an option in these circumstances though?

    Life is all about 2 things - choice and change. Those of you on here who get ill, injured, or who are unexpectedly diagnosed with some horrible medical condition [as both my sons now have] will understand what I mean. When someone loses someone close to them that can also be a bit of a shock too. Unexpected job redundancy, finding out that your partner is having an affair, or that one or more of your kids aren't yours, divorce, etc., etc. Now tell me where in the list of those life-changing issues that I have listed above does the issue of whether or not to stay in the WKSA come?
  8. dbt4581

    dbt4581 Valued Member

    I know the first sentence above is true on a VERBAL scale. I wouldn't be shocked if it ended up in writing.

    I know for a fact that the franchise agreement at any stage had nothing to do with Master Kunz' withdrawal. He had issue in Costa Rica that prompted resignation.
  9. Unjeesunsu

    Unjeesunsu Valued Member

    What if you don't want to leave but....never mind. Here is what was posted on the Sulkido Thread by Dragon2 post #23, (coudn't figure out how to put a quote in)

    From Dragon2
    Hello Pugil and Dragonkarma Just wanted to comment that it does not matter Who started What and what technique is better than this technique. The person practicing the Martial Art or Arts has a different body built and everything can be modified for that person. The Art is just a way for beginner to learn and adapt. We should all get along and not carry on about this and that. We are all Family in the Martial Arts World. I know that both of you know my History because I was there in the beginning. We all have to make choices about what we want to do in the Martial Arts. We can stay with an Association or start our own Association. In Reality we are all on a journey and it depends on how we cope with life difficulities and keep moving forward. Does the Association want Loyality or Profit. (theory) What if you were to spend nearly 40 years in an association and all of a sudden It comes down to Yourself or one of your Students who get to keep the only Professional School. You are told that it is business. The same Student whom you let open a school 3 or 4 miles away from your school because you wants as many association schools around, will not let you open a school 5 or 6 miles from his school because of it being just business. Where is the Fairness and Loyality. I didn't mean to get off track but there are a lot of variables out there in the real world and it all depends on how we react to it. WE all carry extra baggage around. So let just say that it is OK to disagree but be civil about it.

    This comment made me realize how messed up things are and I had to respond.


    I think I’m about to derail this thread…………..sorry, can’t help it.

    First of all, those that say “I was there from the beginning” tend to forget that there were others, like you for example. With your post I realized that I think I know who you are and I know that you were one of the few that truly have been with the Grandmaster from the beginning. I also know in what position you are in right now unless there are more callous people like that guy you described. There are a number of people already talking about that matter and the crap he is pulling might cave in on him fairly soon.

    There used to be a time and cases where school owners worked things out among each other or Kuk Sa Nim took over and made the decision for them. Now, it’s all about business, all about money even if it means to backstab your Master. In your case it would be, your former student backstabbing you to take over your students. Kuk Sa Nim does not have the power for decision making anymore, it’s Sa Mo Nim, Alex Suh and the lawyers.

    When it comes to your point “we are all family in the Martial Arts World” that sounds really nice and the way it should be. When it comes to the “Won” and our beautiful saying of “We are all brothers and sisters” many know that this is mostly BS. It seems that the association does not treat everybody fairly. What’s good for one school owner might not be necessarily the same for another. There are KSW school owners that have pulled pretty bad stunts and nothing happened others have experienced tough times and were kicked out. Where was the association to help these schools owners and their students? The decisions the association makes about a school owner does not only affect him personally but also each and every student who has put their time, effort, trust and money into a school. It happened more than once that students were left standing in the rain and the association moved on and didn’t give a crap about them. Martial Arts Family….,Brothers and sisters….,not quite.

    I agree that it should not matter who started what and don’t think anybody will be able to 100 % proof the true roots of Kuk Sool Won and what was taken from whom and who splintered when and from what. If anybody can, PLEASE do so, because I’m not patient enough nor do I have the time to do the research but it would be interesting to know. Fact is that some of the stories are just not kosher. We’ll still teach what we know but at least we are aware of what the truth is before we give KSW history lessons to our students.

    Sure enough, I’m off topic, sorry. I just felt it needed to be said and with that I’ll post it on other threads also.

  10. CriticalDog

    CriticalDog Valued Member

    I have seen students get bumped up to 1st degree BB in a year, due to that student wanting to open a KSW school.

    I have seen a 1st degre get bumped to 2nd degree based on willingness to pay a large sum of money at once.

    I have seen enough to know that the WKSA is broken, and has been for years. This saddens me, as I always hoped for a chance to return and actually get my belt, but that seems even more far away.

    I have been away from Kuk Sool and WKSWA for about 10 year now, and while I regret what must happen, it is pretty clear that in the end, Kuk Sool as an art, seperate from the WKSA will grow and thrive.
  11. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"


    Yo Dog!

    Listen pal this is the type of crap that is contagis not only for the MA but in all aspects of life as well. No wonder your screen name is "Critical" maybe it should be "Synical". If you let something like someone getting promoted that didn't earn thier belt get to you then they win again. Where are they now if what you say is true I doubt that they have the capability to stick it out if they couldn't even get thier belts through the normal proccess? If you want to train in Kuk Sool then by god get off your ass and make it happen. Don't ever let anyone steal your dreams. As far as WKSA is concerned I would go to the horses mouth rather than taking the opinions on this form as gospil. You can send an email to WKSA and get thier side of the story and make a educated decision as to the direction the asscociation is taking. You then can make your mind up as far as locating a "Won" or "Non Won" school to train at.:mad:

    I know I kind of just gave you a kick in the pants, but it only because I care.:hat:

    Good Luck!
  12. CriticalDog

    CriticalDog Valued Member

    I assure you, if there was anyone, "Won" or not, teaching Kuk Sool anywhere within an hour drive of me that would work within my schedule, I would be all for it. But there isn't. The closest KS school I've found is about 4 hours away from me.

    So I do "Basic Martial Arts" at the local YMCA with my son, teaching him what I can remember and keeping my personal flame going.

    For the record, the fellow that got his belt quickly in order to open a school changed from a KSW school to a "Generic Martial Arts School" quickly, then sold it to a local Martial Arts school chain in my old hometown. I don't know what he's doing now, but the dude is shady.

    As for the 1st to 2nd degree bump, honestly, I'm not sure what has become of him. He was a much older man, and I admired his ability to stick with it.

    And thank you for the kick in the pants! hehehe
  13. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Is that 1 year from white belt to BB or 1 year from DBN to BB?

    If its the first, that is shady, but if its the latter...:cool:
  14. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Isn't it spelt 'Cynical'?
  15. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    In English, yes. In redneck American it's "synical" :evil:
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2009
  16. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"


    I wonder if you could work out a training schedule with the instructor at the dojang 4 hours away? Maybe once or twice a month on a saturday to continue your KS studies. A camcorder and text book could keep you up to speed in between times, and you could use the YMCA to train the basics and get a good workout. Just a thought, FWIW.

    Good Luck!
  17. ember

    ember Valued Member

    The nearest *school* teaching near us is three hours away. But we're able to get together and practice with a few other people. Mind if I ask where you are? You can PM if you'd rather not post it.
  18. CriticalDog

    CriticalDog Valued Member

    Well, I'm far enough removed from my old stomping grounds that I'm not going to step on any toes... hehe

    I currently live about an hour northeast of Pittsburgh, PA. I may make a trip into Ohio once I figure out what's going on with my scheudle (new kid starting school) and my work scheudle. Not a bad idea.
  19. otherbrother

    otherbrother Valued Member

    This Thread is the main reason why I signed up on MAP. Now it's sleeping.

    Has anybody noticed how many schools are missing and how short the list of Masters has become on the HQ Website?

    Any news???? Anybody??? Please. Thanks.

  20. Unjeesunsu

    Unjeesunsu Valued Member

    It looks like Pasadena is gone too. They changed their website and have a new flag, "Kuk Sool of Pasadena"
    How much longer until Kuk Sa Nim puts his foot down and stops this franchise crap?

    The way I see it, I think a lot of school owners realize how much more freedom they have by not being in the "Won". They make good money, have plenty of students and most of these students want to learn martial arts, they don't care about the 3 letters on their patch.

    This is just a sad situation. H E L L O, Headquarters, anybody home????


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