Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by tatar, Dec 15, 2008.
MMACBlackBelt and 3rdEye are both correct.
Nothing has been said to us over in the UK yet and I very much doubt it will be anything like the figures that are going round in this thread!
I am curious about this as well. Kinda screwy to have to hear it on a forum.
One weird thing I noticed a month or so ago. I was on E-bay thinking of getting some old magazines for their covers and I saw that SBN PHILLIP SAGE was selling his sign for the business. In the notes he said he was very saddened to have to leave the association. I wonder if this has something to do with it. It might not though, he was a long time student of KJN Larry White.
About the original question, I don't have enough information to have an informed opinion yet.
Actually, there are several places where folks with WKSA grades can go and continue learning the Kuk Sool art...Lets see:
National Korean Martial Arts Association
United Martial Science Federation
to name a few, plus all of the independent instructors, and masters that have broken away, and still teach...
WKSA does not mean Kuk Sool, and Kuk Sool does not mean WKSA...its not the sole source. There are many very knowledgable, and capable instructors and masters outside of WKSA,
Ah.....not to tread too heavily on this but it pretty much seems to me the natural outcome for the overall direction that the KMA has been taking for quite some time. People who have been associated with the TKD and TSD traditions already know about the role commercial success and the matter of revenues plays in those activities. Groups such as the ATA with its tight control over its membership and its materials is but one extreme example of the premise.
In the Hapkido arts, despite much advertising about how tolerant and accepting groups are, the fact is that organizations ultimately seek to corral folks into doing things as are done by the organization---and for the benefit of the organization not the individual.
What a person would expect to be purchasing with an organizational membership is the increased frequency of meeting others with like goals and purposes. What is actually purchased is the opportunity to swim in the same direction, turn at the same moment and perform all the other lock-step movements one finds with folks who trade the scariness of individuality for the safety of the herd. FWIW.
I bow to yoyr superiotr knowledge Kidsool. Thank you for this. However, this also assumes tha the school owner will do one of several things, including becoming affiliated to one or other of these federations or associations, and also being in a position to train / learn from a higher ranking master in these associations / federations and be able to pass this information on to their students. It will certainly not be an easy path for those in an area of poverty when it comes to Korean Martial Arts (KMA) in the area. However, therin lies a potential oportunity for some enterprising school owner ... maybe.
However, as Airnick pointed out, this side of the pond it appears that nothing has been said about the franchise idea. Let's see how this all pans out.
I may start another thread about the ability to train in different KMA whilst still retaining one's KSW ranking.
Once again Kidsool, many thanks for your putting me right.
Just an observation Quozl ;-D
I imagine this "idea" would be harder to execute "across the pond", than it would be to implement in the states...If it does pan out, I imagine steps will be taken not too long after to establish the proper HQ for Europe to regulate the franchising... who knows?
My school owner friend is ****ed, (in a contained way), that he's hearing this from me and that I read it on this blog. There's a lot of gossip in KSW, I guess that is natural since it is a private org. But, it's definitely on the con list for me, as is the idea of franchising.
We were trying to figure out if Gracie BJJ is a franchise. Is there any other MA that is franchised? The only fitness franchise comparison we could make is a gym like Bally's or 24 Hour Fitness. Someone else mentioned Pilates. Apparently, Pilates teachers have to pay high teacher training tuition, yearly dues and pass certification in order to instruct.
Looking for a positive explanation for franchising , my friend figured that the grandmaster is getting along in life and wants to make sure his system stays as he intended after he's gone. His gf said, it's his wife that wants the org to stay in her family.
He will not franchise, but turn it into a KMA Center. He will remain a student, of KSW, taking privates with his master. As it is, they have to travel for competitions, and it has been a struggle to get them there. His students, except one, are not invested in the competition side. He actually says it will be sort of relief to exit the politics. He only has 2 students that will loose a 2nd degree BB rank, and 6 with 1st degree. He teaches that rank is not the goal. He also says it only takes 2 and half years to get a black belt in KSW, so when they are ready to join the franchise they will have a short refresher of the basics period, and an advantage.
I wonder how this will go over in Korea. They might embrace it. The trend is to do things, the "American Way", so being a part of a franchise might actually make them feel proud.
Look, guys, what's the point of discussing this on the basis of rumor alone? There is no announcement on the WKSA webpage mentioning anything of the sort. Nor has any specific notification been posted giving details of the arrangement. As people who are in the process of starting a club, we SHOULD be among the first to get notified of something like this . If nothing else, we should have heard something from our instructor.
Since none of that has happened yet, all of this is pure speculation. My opinion on this topic is worthless as long as there continues to be insufficient data.
I heard about it the first of the year, but what I heard was different than what is being posted here. I agree it's probably best to wait until more official information comes out.
It is not a rumor. Sorry, can't get into details.
My own thought is that if people are going to make a commitment to a particular approach or art, then it is necessary for them to have all the information they can get in order to make good decisions. My own experience is that organizations are overwhelmingly self-serving and will not share information until it is in THEIR best interests and not always that of their members. FWIW.
Yes a franchise disclosure has been offered.
Seven Good Reasons To Delay This:
One - 125 pages of it is missing.
Two - WKSA is not your only option.
Three - I had a firm look at it and in the report I received back it received a bad rating.
Four - Do your "due diligence" if you are a school owner - contact an attorney.
Five - I personally feel this is the wrong approach for this type of organization.
Six - You gain nothing by entering into the franchise.
Seven - YOU WILL LOSE EVERYTHING - ALL PROPERTY BOTH MOVABLE, IMMOVABLE, TANGIBLE, AND INTELLECTUAL, SHOULD YOU WALK AWAY FROM THE FRANCHISE OR LOSE YOUR SCHOOL BY WAY OF DEFAULT TO THE FRANCHISE.
So is there a choice? Can you opt to take out the franchise or continue operating as is?
That is not accurate. There isn't a "choice" per se.
Sign the agreement and you're in, don't sign it and at the expiration of your license, you're out.
Much as they gripe my cookies, thank gawd someone finally mentioned contacting a lawyer.
strange, i thought it was nearer 4!
I believe he was referring to the length of time for testing, not the length of time from white belt thru promotion to 1st dahn.
I had avoided posting on this thread sooner, merely because I haven't gotten anything mailed to me by WKSA (they stopped including me after I relocated a few years ago). So unless I go to HQ to get any stuff they need to disseminate, I won't be able to get my hands on it (I do get email from HQ, though).
However, I am in regular contact with several school owners and I had heard about a HUGE packet of information that was apparently sent out early in December. As stated, I haven't been able to read through any of the legal mumbo-jumbo, but from what I gather, it does not bode well.
The WKSA "powers that be" did discuss this new turn of doing business last year at the Instuctor/Master Workshop. GM IHS stated at that time that the fees would be greater than the old license agreement fees (which were VERY cheap indeed) but nothing approaching the 50K mentioned by MMACBlackBelt (just a few thousand USD). Supposedly, the franchise regulations were to be based on the previous QAP guidelines, but from what I've heard thus far, the WKSA seems to be overstepping those boundaries quite a bit.
But I'll stop speculating any further, until I can get my hands on a copy of this *weighty* document.
The point of the document is that it is a DISCLOSURE as required by the Federal Trade Commission. The "50K" amount, hereinafter referred to as "The Amount," is the estimated cost that it would take to operate a new school, correctly, meeting the guidelines in the document. The purpose of disclosing that is if you are a newbie and this is your first rodeo with a martial art school ownership.
The Franchise Agreement, hereinafter referred to as "The Agreement," has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the QAP. Please, please, please, don't let anyone mislead you into thinking that. In fact, 125 pages of the document, "the procedures," is actually MISSING!
I have requested the missing pages and have received a new copy with the pages still missing.
The Agreement in reality, forms a new organization where YOU WILL LOSE EVERYTHING - ALL PROPERTY BOTH MOVABLE, IMMOVABLE, TANGIBLE, AND INTELLECTUAL, SHOULD YOU WALK AWAY FROM THE FRANCHISE OR LOSE YOUR SCHOOL BY WAY OF DEFAULT TO THE FRANCHISE.
Let me put it to you like this: Say you have been with WKSA for 25 years and built a school of 200 students from the dust of whatever town you dwell. You sign the agreement. Six months later you decide that you do not like where things have gone and decide to go on your own, or join Seo, Sims, Timmerman, or any other new KS organization that may be formed. The moment you submit your resignation, they will own your school, lease, students, ALL PROPERTY BOTH MOVABLE: certain fixtures, equipment, etc.; IMMOVABLE: the lease for the building if you are leasing, a possible interest in the building if you own; TANGIBLE: things that you can touch, and INTELLECTUAL: things you have created: your reputation in the community, any martial art inventions you have made, your phone numbers, websites, domain names, facility name, etc. You can not cancel any contracts or do anything that will interrupt the school's service: i.e. think you are gonna get them back by having the phone cut off. Subsequently, you can't start a new school any where near 25 miles close to your old school and take the students with you.
PEOPLE - THIS IS NOT SOMETHING TO SIGN, SEE, AND TRY OUT TO SEE IF IT WORKS. IF YOU SIGN THIS AGREEMENT YOU ARE ALL IN!!!
You must stay with the organization or lose everything, end of story.
Sounds to me like the school owners need to create an IKS (Independent Kuk Sool) ORG instead of staying with the KSW. Hold competions with other IKS schools, use other IKS school instructors to grade, etc..,
Or is there something already like that? I'm not a KS practioner, but interesting to read about the growing pains here and see where it goes.
Separate names with a comma.