"Kata" - an amateur's perspective

SW - you dissapoint me. It has never been instead of, it is as well as. In sparring, the better your opponent is the more you have a chance to learn (cause they spring more surprises on you to deal with ). This means that how good you get is related to who you have sparred with.

By comparison, the forms let everyone learn the same things (which they can then do what they like with in sparring). Nothing gets missed!! Even if they miss the next lesson where an element of the kata is expanded upon and explained, then at least they have learned the move if not what they can do with it.

As far as the 'unwieldy, robotic fashion' is concerned, I've had it drummed in for over a year that it should NOT look robotic. Everything should flow seamlessly into an effective programming of mental and muscle memory that can be drawn on when needed.

On a different point. Identifying arts that do not have 'forms' as part of their teaching methods and indicating they are effective without them is not a fair comparison with arts that have used 'forms' as a teaching method over the centruries. If those arts discarded the use of forms then they must be diminished because they have lost something.

 

Well said. I couldnt agree with you more

 

Have you actually done it? if you have everything after this moot.

If you spend enough time training not to hit someone in the nose during sparring or to pull back on some of your techniques during sparring all your doing is training your body to do this on regualr basis(why do you think we pratice drills and basics so much? to ingrain muscle memory) When you end up in a streesfull situation you really believe that you will be able to fight against years of ingrained training?

No. what I'm saying is if you actually study your art and find the meaning of Kata it is better self defense training than sparring. If you are still doing forms in an unwieldy robotic fashion than you havent began to learn the true purpose of Kata. If you came to the Dojo I study in you could see 4 of us doing the same Kata with subtle variations because we all have different application for our moves. This is just my opinion feel free to disagree all you want. thats why the forum in part exists. I certainly have an opinion on sparing for self defense. Let me just say that Randori or free sparring is a completely different animal than point sparring or even full contact sparring. I just think whenever you have a ring and a judge you arent training self defense and I personally believe that all of self defense techniques can be found in Kata.

 

so how often do you spend work on bridging (in terms of grappling) and how on earth do you think doing that i na kata would be of any use at all?

 

All of my tuite and PP strikes are found in my Kata. I wont lie and say that i can train for every self defense situation. If someone sucker punches me I am going to fall down period. But i have worked on one hand and two hand grabs, wrist grabs, lapel grabs, being grabbed and somone throwing a punch at you, chokes. hair grabs and full nelsons. Like I said before I have seen plenty of bar fights in my time and I try to train self defense with as realistic situations as I can. I cant account for everything but I try my best. I still think sparring is great for a multitude of reasons if i came across as saying sparring is useless than I did a bad job. I certainly see the merit in sparring. I was just working wrist and arm locks last night in class and all of our moves were taken directly from Kata.

 

Yes, I read your post but I don't think you've been reading mine.

The way I see it, shadowboxing is pretending to fight while kata is pretending to do a drill. Not all people spar/fight the same, and this shows in the way they shadow box. Take someone who likes to stay back and counter with hooks and uppercuts, and someone who likes to be aggressive and uses mainly crosses or haymakers, and watch them shadow box. The person who like to counter will be countering. The person who likes to throw bombs and be aggressive will be doing just that.

Now take these two same people and make them do a kata. Now they are doing the exact same movements in the exact same way. This does not represent how they would actually be fighting.

Also, kata is used to learn techniques. You learn a series of movements, and then try to use the "applications" of those movments. People who shadow box first learn techniques which they use on a heavy bag, pads, or in sparring. Then they shadow box, using only techniques that they would actually spar or fight with, not just what they are told to do.

For it's purpose, yes. The purpose of running is to give you an aerobic work out, which it does very well. The purpose of kata is to help you get better at fighting (at least the purpose we are talking about in this thread), but it fails because there are better ways to achieve the same result.

I fit the way I train to my goals- not the other way around.

But what purpose does kata serve? It has no benefits that can't be helped more by other means.

LOL. Do you seriously think kata is why he can fight well? I think it has more to be with him being a bouncer...

 

so thats a no then? what a surprise (briding is when someone is sitting on your chest and you are trying to get them off, something ive seen a fair few times)

 

I think you just shot yourself in the foot. This implies that the people you are speaking for only practice a small sub-set of their art in their chosed 'air punching' exercise. The same people doing kata would automatically be practicing all the techniques of the given art. This is an excellent paise and support of the use of kata in your own words - unfortunatly I don't think you are going to see it.

You've just proved the benefits yourself. But I'll also add the question - how often in sparring to people go 2, 3, or 4 onto 1? How often do shadowboxers deal with the imaginary opponent in front of them and turn to deal with his two imaginary mates creeping up from behind?

The 6 low blocks in the classic "Basic Form 1" (pick your own language translation ) could not be praticed by standing 'ready' and doing a 'low block' 6 times - the form blocks attacks from the left and the right, and incorporates quarter, half, and three-quarter turns to do this.

Same old comment promotes the same old answer.... If he is that good a fighter because of his other training, why does he bother with kata? Maybe he sees something in it I still don't know the class of people you are talking about - the last time I gave this answer Timmy Boy said it was because their trainers make them do it - but are they not at a stage where they decide how they train? Forgive my ignorance of the personallities - I'm not a follower of any broadcast sports.

 

Of course you can also work on things you aren't very good at when shadowboxing, but the goal is to improve things you're going to use. However, the best way to work on techniques you don't like is to drill them with a partner.

So you think imagining being attacked by 4 people is going to prepare you for that situation? lol

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't seeing as that is useless. No amount of fighting imaginary multiple attackers is going to help you. If you want to prepare yourself for that, why not do some scenario training with multiple attackers?

 

I prefer working out, hitting the heavy bag and pads and sparring to kata/forms. I still do them because my school makes me do them AND they do wonders for my hand speed.

I don't like karate katas, but if you want to do them and they make you feel good and you see benefits in them, then do it.

It's all about the industry.

Pankration, you have just been served.

 

How sure are you of that? Heres a quote from one of the worlds top kata experts, Patrick McCarthy:
" I, therefore, don’t believe that kata, when learned by itself was ever meant to impart self-defense instruction, but rather, to culminate the important lessons already learned and to promote those requisite physical attributes any functional delivery system necessitates." http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/

Come on Pankration90, be a man, take responsibilities for your arguments and admit you're wrong! Nobody here will think you're a wimp, if anything, quite the opposite - I know I will.

Exactly my point! It's strange how Geoff Thompson wrote a book on karate applications. Even after all those years of being a bouncer he argues that the kata can be a useful training tool with very effective applications. Obviuosly with age and experience comes wisdom... Like I said, Panctrtion90, admit you're wrong and lets all get this discussion moving forward.

 

Back to partners again - remember my sick wife upstairs in bed? The learning of the forms allows for the private pratice of all the moves in a fighting art without the assistance of partners. When you are free to 'do the moves you want', how many are dedicated to do the bits they don't like?

I hope never to find out! But the moves combine turning to a new direction in preparation for something happening, and promotes an awareness of a 360-degree environment.

Sorry! Not quite understanding the highlighted sentence. However we do carry out these scenarios in class - nobody has tried to say kata alone does everything.

 

I don't actively train not to hit someone in the nose. And no, I have not actually done it. But look at the thread entitled 'What technique have you used in a real fight?' People have used moves like eye gouges which obviously you would not use in sparring so I do not agree that kinetic memory is everything.

Maybe I'm just a 'MRSA fighter.'

You're entitled to your on opinion but I beg to differ. See, at my dojo when we do self defence training we do kind of 'amorphous' sparring where you don't use stylistic moves, just do whatever works, like for getting out of a headlock or bearhug. There was one memorable occasion when we had to lie on top of each other pinning the uke to the floor and take turns wrestling each other off. I can at least assume it is effective because it involves actually using your strength on someone else who may be bigger than you (what's that phrase Ubermint is always using...ah yes...fully resisting opponent)and doesn't involve a bunch of stylistic rules.

(And I honestly don't mean this confrontationally, but it is surely more effective than katas.)

 

Fine!!! Yes all of our katas can be done from the ground as well and I have LIGHTLY trained these. As a rule we dont do ground technique but how is sparring ground fighting, as it relates to self defense?? No knees to the head no kicking to the head from the ground ( these are typical MMA rules). You stay focused on one thing I have said while you completely eliminate everything else. Where and in what situation have you seen briding? Steet fights or bar fights and what lead to that situation. If an untrained person gets taken off their feet in a fight wouldnt I be well suited to learn how to stay on mine and I actually learn that through GOOD stances in all of my Kata. I certianly know how to weight the front leg and then kick out the back one to take someone off their feet. For the LAST TIME any time you add rules you IMO ONLY cant train proper self defense. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION. Call it stupid or misguided whatever you like for that matter dont ever train with me that is the beauty of the Martial arts if you dont like what someone offers you, you can always find something else. This is just what I believe. You arent going to convince me that your right any more than I can convince you that I am.

 

I agree to a certain extent BUT where I disagree is that I believe you can find these moves in forms. This is what I have found through my training. Maybe becuase thats what i have always been told by my instuctors that I feel the way I do. We are all a product of our teachers.

 

Methicillin-Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus

 

doesnt matter how good you are against a takedown when someone is sitting on your chest pummelling in your face. I am sure that when you are lying there screaming "I cant be taken down!" they really wont care. bridging is a very basic tech that should be taught in any art that considers itself a self defense art. and its one you won't learn through kata. and you dont need to spar to learn how to do it so it could easily fit in with your mr soft touch training

 

Thanks for Caring. I will have to remeber to be a completely inept martial artist to allow myself to be taken down so easily and then to just lay there while somone pummells me. I'll tell you what in all my time seeing fights I have never seen someone taken off their feet right away. It usually comes after 2 guys locking up pushing each other around. I feel pretty comfortable in my ability to defend myself the miute someone puts their hands on me. But your right I am neglecting my ground training and there is always that possibility that I will need it. Considering I train Pressure Point strikes your also correct in my "mr soft touch training" but i dont want to open that topic again.

 

does it really matter how you get there? what if someone tackles you from the side and you dont see it? if you are serious about SD these are the sort of things you should cover, and I am just making the point that you CANNOT use kata for some self defense applications (or most, imo)

 

What you're saying flies in the face of how most people train with kata. Most people I've encountered learn a kata, then learn the "applications" of those movements. This can lead to thinking there are "hidden" applications that help you deal with every situation, which in turn can lead to looking within your own style for these "hidden" techniques instead of cross training to improve your weaknesses. (Oh, let's look inside our kata to learn how to defend against grappling, instead of actually training to do just that with real grapplers!)

What you're saying is that first you learn the moves, then you practice them in the air in order. I think that is a much better approach. You already have an understanding of the techniques before doing it. There is no confusion about "what this techniques means" etc. This is basically shadow boxing with specified sequence of movements.

If you truly prove I'm wrong I'll have no problem admitting it. So far all you've done is say that Geoff Thompson does kata. What does that prove?

If you aren't dedicated enough to practice what you don't like, then I doubt you're dedicated enough to do kata on your own either. Besides, like I've already said, you aren't going to improve your techniques all that much by doing them in the air. That's why I view shadowboxing as secondary to all the other methods of learning and practicing techniques.

Sorry I didn't phrase that very well. I meant to say I don't imagine I'm being attacked by multiple people because that isn't going to help me any if that actually happens.

If you do practice those scenarios as realistically as possible in class, then that's great. Now what does this have to do with kata?

It doesn't need to do 'everything' in order to be useful. I've said this many times alreay, but I'll say it again.

The way I (and many others) train, we only do things that have a specific purpose or fulfill a certain need. If we run out of gas during sparring/fighting, then we'll work on cardio by running etc. If we aren't as strong as we'd like to be, we lift weights or do other exercises. If we aren't as flexible as we'd like to be, we stretch. If our technique is sloppy, we hit a bag, hit pads, or practice them in the air (practicing them in the air isn't the preferred method, of course). I think you see where I'm going with this.

Now what is kata's purpose? What does it improve that can't be improved by other means? If you can think of a purpose for kata that is relevent to fighting effectively and can't be improved by other methods, let me know.