Kanazawa Sword

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by puma, Nov 28, 2013.

  1. puma

    puma Valued Member

    I guess this is a Karate question really, but I stay off the Karate forum now. Can't be doing with the nonsense. So I was hoping for a sensible answer on here. I was recently shown by a friend a demo by the Shotokan master Sensei Kanazawa using a sword. I wasn't aware he studied this. Does anyone know who taught him or where he learnt this? Does anyone know what style it is he does? Unfortunately I don't have a link to the clip I saw because I don't know what site it was on. I think it was just someones website.
     
  2. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Quick Google search threw this up...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRm9tN3nTL8"]Kancho Hirokazu Kanazawa demonstration with katana - YouTube[/ame]

    Not convinced its the best display of swordmanship I've ever seen. Makes me wonder why Karate sensei feel the need...

    Gary
     
  3. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Koyo spoke about Kanazawa cross training wth Chiba , maybe the sword stuff is Aikido derived ?
     
  4. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    What he is is doing (or at least the chiburi and noto etc) looks like ZNKR Seitei kata stuff.
     
  5. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    You're right. The karate forum is a notorious hotbed of nonsense. The Mods rarely get time away from it because the reasoned opinions of the MAPpers there, expressed in an unobjectionable way, keep us constantly moderating their controversial ranting.

    Oh! Hang on....

    Mitch
     
  6. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    Lessons in passive aggressiveness :p


    Why does it seem like it's a big deal for a Karate guy to practice something else such as swordplay? Is there a one martial art limit or something I'm not aware of? Not sure if that's what the posts are getting at in their critiques, but it sure reads like it.
     
  7. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I really wish you'd quote a post, just to make it clear who your passive aggressiveness applies to.

    This now probably sounds really passive aggressive? Sorry! :D

    Mitch
     
  8. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    I could have done that nifty multi-quote thing you taught us in the other thread! :cool:

    :p

    (edit: not being terribly serious, but I am wondering about why it seems taboo for a Karate person to train the sword though)
     
  9. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    Not at all. I've yet to ever hear of any such thing as a "one-art limit", and if there was such a thing, the karate community would be having a heluva time dealing with their own arts' historical and/or current links to other arts; some may have had links to Ryukyu-kobudo, others to judo, and so on.

    The issue with karateka doing demos with the katana is that all too often the people doing so are half-arsing their sword practice and/or basing their practice on things like chanbara rather than any actual sword martial arts. This assumes, of course, they're practicing at all; some instead merely pose with the sword to look all Japanese-martial-arts-like.

    Even senior karateka fall into this trap (as was the case demonstrated in the video), though it's not apparent whether it's the result of overestimating their own skills or whether it's a matter of selling an image to their audiences.
     
  10. beer_belly

    beer_belly Valued Member

    Nope - not ZNKR, and the chiburi & noto actually looks somewhat dangerous to the practitioner, but not knowing the lineage I am willing to be corrected...
     
  11. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    If you go and read the threads in the karate forum, for example by doing an advanced search on puma's posts there, you'll see there is absolutely no taboo about a karate person using a sword.

    There may be an issue over puma not getting the answers he wants to hear, but nothing about karateka and swords. :)

    Mitch
     
  12. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    I think when the instructor for the Isshinryu class I started MA off with gave a katana to the people who got a black belt as a gift. Nice gesture, but there's a big goose egg for sword training in the Isshinryu syllabus. I would have rather gotten a nice staff or pair of sai, of which there are kata and applications of within the art if I had gotten that far. I can definitely see the use of katanas a poor practice of trying to seem "more Japanese."

    I don't like it when people associate themselves with something to form an image, but have no expertise in it. I don't think it would take as long to master a weapon enough to use it practically (meaning you're good in 'battlefield use,' not a duel type environment) but to really master it probably takes just as long as what unarmed fighting does.
     
  13. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    Found more questions than answers :)

    I was shocked however to stumble across one of the MODs (of all people) spreading utter garbage and was shocked, disappointed and dismayed! Horses are entirely relevant for street fighting!

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34087136&postcount=22

    Explain yourself sir!
     
  14. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    It's the raison d'etre of TKD, that's why you never see a cavalry charge in a dojang!

    Mitch
     
  15. puma

    puma Valued Member

    No, not against Karateka learning sword arts at all. Sometimes I wonder about the "traditional" sword people when they always have something negative to say about another MAist using a sword. Everyone is dangerous with a sword! Those things can be sharp. If the user has speed and skill, and isn't chucking it up in the air like that freestyle nonsense, then I don't see the problem. In fact, I always wanted to see Tatsuo Suzuki with a sword, or a Bo for that matter. I believe he was 2nd dan Kendo. But he would never show anyone other than the very basic cuts for the Wado defences.

    This thread wasn't to bash Kanazawa. He must be 80-odd now, and that looked fairly recent. So to do any MA demo at that age is impressive. He didn't really do that much to criticise anyway. The only thing I did notice was he seemed to struggle a bit getting it back in the case. I just wondered where and when he was taught. I knew he did Tai Chi and nunchaku, but I never heard anyone mention sword.
     
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    If you have proper training you are not as likely to hurt yourself or others. Also if you don't have proper training then why do a demo?

    You aren't showing an art, you aren't showing a skill as it should be performed, you aren't reflecting a cultural tradition or proper usage of a weapon. All you are doing is something for your benefit.

    Also every one of these demos I've seen where a non sword guy is doing a demo it is obvious they don't have the skills or speed you are on about.

    Your comments show you don't really understand why people have a problem with such a thing, it doesn't take much to see the training or lack of behind someone's movement. Most of the time all it takes is a draw or a cut and you are told volumes and with some people it takes even less than that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  17. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Because Karate is a proud art of unarmed combat that does not need such extravagances as swords to be totally awesome! Our feet are their own swords!!!

    Seriously though, there's no real taboo about it. I have heard rumours that in olden days it was a lot more common for an instructor to generally insist their students stick to the study and mastery of one art as a life long goal type thing, but have not seen anything to confirm that. Probably people just ranting for the sake of it.
     
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    The problem today is most of the time is when people don't actually bother to study the weapon, they just go for the photo opportunity or an attempt to make what they do seem more "exotic". :rolleyes:

    You won't find many sword folks who object to someone wanting to sincerely learn a sword art, heck half the time you can't shut them up trying to encourage people. :D
     
  19. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Not wishing to sound disrespectful (as the guy is a legend in my eyes), but with the small amount of Kenjutsu training I have done, I would say he hasn't really been taught by anyone to any great extent.

    My instructor would have an absolute novice handling a sword better than that after just a few hours.

    And as for the noto (re-sheathing) - yes, not a pretty sight and could have resulted in a nasty injury as Dean has already alluded to.

    Let's look at this another way - safety aside - there's no reason why a Karate instructor (with very limited sword training) shouldn't do sword demos, just like there is no reason why a swordsman (with just a lessons worth of Karate) couldn't demonstrate a Goju-ryu kata!

    It's not going to look very impressive though.

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  20. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    I apologize for coming into the topic a little late, however as someone who has done koryu both armed and unarmed, I can say that Kanazawa sensei's iai, tameshigiri and muto-dori embu was very rough.

    Kanazawa Shihan's skill in karate & taijiquan is well known, however this was something else.

    I have no idea what form of iai he was doing (i.e. the ryuha he is trying to demonstrate). His tameshigiri skill speaks for itself - Not very good. The muto-dori is a very shocky, stuttery repitition of aikido techniques in which the tori is pulling his cuts, suggesting that Kanazawa shihan cannot pull the techniques off properly as they haven't been trained sufficiently.

    I apologize if this post comes off as inflammatory, however I've been doing sword related Japanese traditions for a good few years now and if you can't demonstrate a technique well, don't do it in embu.
     

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