Judo came from ju jitsu

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Floorismyfriend, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. wallatu

    wallatu New Member

    Marking territory

    Mostly it is the ju jutsu ka who are marking territory.

    Judoka I have met generally have a more balanced view of things, but ju jutsu people often have a view that ju jutsu is better than sliced bread.

    And they'll often drag up the old argument that "well, judo was created from ju jutsu, but without the fun stuff" and that it somehow makes ju jutsu superior, which is bull.

    Like I said:
    Judo was a development and took a slightly different path than ju jutsu, but both paths are "correct" and will often lead to the same things. But not nessecarily at the same time.

    Judo is not better than ju jutsu, nor is ju jutsu better than judo.

    Is judo better than ju jutsu at pure grappeling, yes, I believe so.

    Is ju jutsu better than judo at teaching a self defence "way of thinking", yes, I believe so.

    The list could go on.

    Perhaps the examples I used gave the impression that I thought ju jutsu was better than judo. I hope it is clear now that that isis not a valid statement. It's like saying that blue is better than green. I might prefer blue, but I don't bash people who like green. I don't go around saying that green sucks because without blue there would be no green.

    Blue might be better suited for some tasks and green for others.

    The bottom line is that the two arts have different goals and will behave differently at different times.

    Comparing ju jutsu to anything is also difficult in its own since there are literaly thousands of styles and systems out there, no two alike, all empasising different things.

    Brazillian Ju Jutsu sweeped the floor in NHB fights when they came on but that was mostly because no one quite knew how to defend against that. Now we see that the more all round fighters are winning.

    My rant was about people claiming that their art is the best, period.

    That is something I have grown quite tired of, both as a martial artist but also as a part of the local budo federation trying to arrange seminars that had several martial arts.

    oh! Thank you for the welcome.
  2. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Re: Re: Judo came from ju jitsu

    Just thought I'd comment on this little bit. Jujutsu does include the use of weapons, it has to to have any weapons defences. Jujutsu would have started as a method of defending against mostly sword cuts, so sword training would have been integrated into the syllabus when it became a stand-alone art. Same with knife work. To defend against weapons you need to do some study into how they work, so koryu jujutsu would have to have had weapons in their systems.

    That's just an aside, most of the rest of what you said was good stuff
  3. TheMasterSword

    TheMasterSword Cunning Linguist

    As far as Judo being used as a self defense mechanism in its purest sense NO.. Kano wanted Judo to be a worldwide sport... However, he soon realized (much after meeting with Ueshiba, founder of Aikido) that just because a technique doesn't strike or maim your opponent doesn't mean that you cannot defend

    it is in this time that he and some of his students developed the kata KODOKAN GOSHIN JUTSU.. WHICH IS DEFINITELY A FORM A SELF DEFENSE USING JUDO

    i understand everyone's argument that a judoka has gaps in their fighting and this i agree... a hard stylist who devotes himself to one style will find out that someone skilled at something that style does not teach.. for instance the putting a taekwondoist against a wrestler... one style cannot defeat all you must train in many different ways of fighting

    in judo we cannot use leg locks or no wrist attacks. in bjj they do not allow wrist breaks either... we have to realize that these are all systems created so that the individuals do not get hurt but in a real fight anything goes and its important to realize this and train for it
  4. wallatu

    wallatu New Member

    The set of techniques is not the point

    It's not about training to kill or maim. It's about focusing on protecting your self at all times. For instance: many locks I've seen judoka do I would never try to do in a fight. Not beause they are not effective at what they do, if you get them in properly they'll break the arm or choke the other person, but because the opponents other arms/legs are uncontrolled and too close to strikepoints on the martial artist. And like some one else said: a real fight is different. It's difficult to get throws, locks and chokes perfect and to sit properly (it's also difficult to get strikes and kicks where they should be too). That's why it's important to remember a lot of other things too.

    I am not saying that judo cannot be used for self defence, there are many techiques that are excellent for selfdefence, I use some my self, but it is the attitude around it, making sure you protect your "soft spots" at all times, making sure your opponent cannot strike your head, keeping your leg in contact with the opponent's leg so you can feel it if he starts moving it, etc, etc. These are not techinques in a syllabus but an attitude that we teach from the very beginning. Because our focus is self-defence first.

    I'm know that in the higher grades of judo you start learning more self defence such as the 21 Kodokan Goshin Jutsu techniques, but you are still missing parts like what was described above and more, multiple attackers, etc. I'm sure that this will come in a while but it will take longer.

    This has less to do with what techniques a system has and much more to do with the attitude and little things that are empasied in the system. When you train a sport, there are many more rules that are emphasied during practice that people get into their habit, but when you train a system that is geared for self defence you'll get into a "self defence thinking" much faster.

    I'm not saying that self defence folks can't do sports, and even do them well, nor am I saying that sports folk can't do self defence, I'm just saying that you are best at what you have trained for the most.

    I'm not trying to dis judo in any way, it's an excellent martial art, all I'm saying is that it is not the fastest way to learn self defence.

    I'm not saying that judo people can't hold their ground in a fight, I've seen them do it, by all means, I'm just saying that there are a lot of things in a fight that are not emphasised in a judo system and if they are it's usually after some time or just on the side as a fun thing to do every now and again.
  5. TheMasterSword

    TheMasterSword Cunning Linguist

    One thing I have realized is that those armlocks that seem to leave your "soft spots" exposed are by no means a free shot in the bosac... i asked that exact same question one time and got the response "Try to hit me"... as I was placed in the lock and tried to move a quarter centimeter I immediately felt the pressure like my arm was in hell and HAD to tap.. there was no way I could strike in this position... however I understand your opinions on fighting and I cannot change that but understand a lot of these techniques WILL work (maybe I wont go to the ground in a multiple attacker scenario but thats my opinion)

    I feel that it Judo and Ju Jutsu are a perfect complement to one another not necessarily one will get you to learn self defense faster than the other...

    My background is Judo and I am now happy to inform all that I am taking a Ju Jutsu class... If I didn't have the training to be able to perform an ippon seoi nage correctly in my defense against a club it would take me a lot longer to be able to defend against that situation in a real fight... judo's uchikomi made me practice OVER AND OVER AND OVER again shoulder throws... if I didn't have that type of training I don't think a man my size would be able to actually do the defense that the Ju Jutsu system called for... this is also vice versa... I have seen many Ju Jutsu students fly through the Kodokan curriculum.. but all students who I have come to contact with have used the benefits from both and not concentrated on "what I would or wouldn't do in a fight".. I feel that it's important to take from each style their strongest points and make them your own
  6. lwicks

    lwicks New Member

    Hi all,

    just my two cents worth here.

    Firstly, from my readings Judo was never a subset of JuJitsu rather a superset.
    In other words Kano-Sensei say Judo as the amalgamation of the surviving JuJitsu styles.

    Evidence of this is would be 1905 when 18 JuJitsu masters gathered at the Butokukai in Kyoto to join with Kano.

    Judo I feel was the crytalisation of the theories and techniques of JuJitsu, glued together with a western educational slant.

    As for Kano-Sensei being against the idea of Judo being a Sport.
    Yes and No!
    Kodokan Judo was never formed with sport in mind and from what I understand Kano-Sensei was concerned about Judo becoming an Olympic sport. (This is evident in letters he wrote)
    However, he was wise and unlike many today, was not interested in maintaining a tight grip on Judo. He I understand whilst traveling to IOC meetings was writing letters expressing his concern. But he did promote Judo as an Olympic sport. Showing humility and a acceptance of the majority view that it should be included.

    To represent a view that you do not share personally, do you think you could do it?

  7. lwicks

    lwicks New Member


    Should I point out at this point that Kano-Sensei died in 1938 and the Goshin-Jutsu was formulated in 1956?

    NOpe.. I think I'll just keep it to myself.

  8. wallatu

    wallatu New Member

    I did not make myself clear. The problem is not when you get the lock in properly. The problem is on the way to the lock, when you don't get the lock in properly or when the other person is able to ignore it. I have met a few people that is able to ignore almost any lock and you would have to break their arm for them to tap off.

    People I know have also been attacked by people high on something that have tried to hit them with their broken arm.

    But again, like I was saying: this is not about techniques, it's about a way of thinking. It's not about being able to throw a guy twice your size, it's about making sure he doesn't hit you in the head.

    Also, TheMasterSword, ju jutsu is not about learning 5 defences against club and if someone tries to hit you with a club you only have those 5 to use. Ju jutsu is about using these techniques to train small principles. In a technique there will be several small principles that you will apply in a real situation. Most people I know that have been attacked have never used a proper and full technique. They have taken small principles from different techniques and put them together to an ad hoc technique that worked there and then against that particular opponent at that particular time.

    As for a judo ka starting a different martial art doing well, it's only natural. This is something I see in my classes every year. You can immediatly tell if a person have been doing other martial arts, they have a basic foundation that is very easy to build on. Any martial artist with some skill will find it relativly easy to learn a different martial art.

    Judo is not a superset of ju jutsu. That would imply that Judo had all of ju jutsu and then some. Nor is it a subset, that would imply that judo did not add anything.

    Judo is a development of ju jutsu. But remember one thing everyone, there is no one "ju jutsu style". Ju jutsu is a common name for several hundered schools of fighting. These schools would emphasise different things. Kano took the styles he had been training and, in his view, made a better system. It was a development, not a sub/superset.

    And that 18 out of hundreds ju jutsu masters joined him does not prove anything more than that they thought Kano's system was better for them.

    But one thing is certain, Kano-sensei was an impressive man with incredible skill. And like lwicks is saying, to release control of his style like he did, to support a view in public that he did not particularly like, that is impressive.

    I hope I have made myself clear now, I have nothing against judo, I do not think one is better than the other, all I'm saying is that the two systems have slightly different focuses and that makes them differently suited to different things.
  9. TheMasterSword

    TheMasterSword Cunning Linguist

    Opps sorry I had the thought in my mind when I was typing Ueshiba.. I meant by my "he" not Kano obviously but Tomiki and a group of high ranking shihans one of which i think was named Sumiyuki... Most of these members trained alongside Tomiki and I def see a similiarity between Tomiki Aikido and the Goshin Jutsu (but thats for another thread) my aiki class actually has the Goshin Jitsu as part of the syllabus
  10. wallatu

    wallatu New Member

    According to the book "Goshin-Jitsu-no-Kata oder die 'Form der Verteidigungstechniken'" by Jochen Kohnert 9. Dan the working group that created the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu katas were lead by Kotani Sumiyuki (10th Dan) and had 24 other members (7th to 9th dan). I can post the full list if anyone is interested.

    Kenji Tomiki was not part of the working group but apperantly many people feel that the work of the group was heavily influenced by him.
  11. sen

    sen New Member

    I like Judo,Judo works...for me

    The only time ,as a Judoka, that i find my self encountering a situation where my opponent isn`t wearing a reinforced Gi is in the street

    (...or possibly when Karate Ka and other styles come to enhance their training...fun,fun..fun - Those thin collars are like cheese wire )

    Unfortunately i have had to apply what you would probably call "combat Judo" all to frequently.

    As regards takedowns:

    Chokes and strangles to start: with an aim to controlling the head.

    After that the base can be worked on using any leg attack.I`ve never had to "hang on by a thread" so to speak and rely on my opponents clothing for my defence.

    The abscence of certain techniques and "disadvantages" in Judo training is more than compensated by the emphasis on non-cooperative training, in my opinion...for me anyway - You can see the same thing happening in MuayThai and Boxing.

    Training in these sports helps people see quick improvments in their ability to defend themselves.

    Although they are limited in technique* the way they train, makes the techniques they use very effective.

    *take the gloves off and traditional Muay Thai has it`s own system of trappng,locking,gouges etc.

    This training ethic was always part of Jigoro Kano`s vision - A system that could be practiced HARD but with minimal ill effects.

    This way Judo players could benefit from training,develop confidence and fitness while learning to test and defend themselves as hard as they wanted .

    Without suffering ill effects(well not too many anyways).

    This is probably one of the things that made Judo a Do system...i.e it has an ethical/moral component is implicit.

    The Do system endeavours to reflect the moral and ethical outlook at all levels.

    i.e that one should endeavour to live their life a certain way and this is supposed to be found at all levels in the system and training.

    Where as 'Jitsu' is really just any technique.

    Ju Jitsu is anybodies collection of techniques, that tend to use "common" or "universal sense,so making them "compliant".

    In a Jitsu system there doesn`t necessarily have to be a moral/ethically driven analysis and subsequent pruning of techniques.

    And there isn`t necessarily a suggestion of what makes you a better person for training in this way - In contrast to the Do form.

    Ju Jitsu is just a collection of techniques that are Ju - Compliant;Yielding;Giving;Clever etc.

    Everyone has Jitsu in them somewhere...it`s just a matter of how clever you make it...Ra,RA,RA,Ra :D

    ...Rant over,sorry

    Just my humble soapbox

    Incidentally,although i say you can train and play Judo hard in the Dojo i am loathe to apply many techniques in a competition fashion in the street.

    This is largely due to the physics of hitting somebody with the concrete part of the planet and jumping right in after them...Just because have a Solicitor doesn`t mean i want to use him.

    As mentioned earlier, i prefer a progressive and controlled decent to the world of Armlocks and Exhaustion..Touch wood.
  12. lwicks

    lwicks New Member

    Also what most people dont know is if your oponent takes off his shirt almost everything you learned in judo becomes almost useless. You would have a much better chance shooting for your oponents legs.

    As a Judoka who has competed in wrestling, (olympic rather than professional) I can assure you that this is not true!

    The transition is simple.

    1) Change the lapel grip to holding the back of their neck with your hand.
    2) Change from sleeve grip to holding their arm/wrist.

    Apply Uchi Mata or TaioToshi.

    Admittedly this is simplifying things. From my experience, the average Judo player will through the average wrestler all over the show. The average wrestler will then tear the average Judoka apart on the floor!

    An advanced wrestler will throw/takedown the average Judo player and tear them into even smaller parts on the floor. (trust me I know from first-hand injury!)

    An advanced Judoka will throw an average wrestler and beat them on the ground also!

  13. Captain_Coward

    Captain_Coward Ne-Waza Worm

    what about advanced wrestler and advanced judoka?

    hehe sneaky i know

    but please answer


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