Jeet Kune Do or decent alternative martial art in Chelsea are of London?

What people are forgetting here in this my style is better than your style or this so called my sport is better than your street fighting system is this: it is not the art that makes you a better fighter. It is you. There are good and bad examples in every art. I have found the JKD principles have made me realise how I can make myself a better fighter both in and out of the ring and it has shown me how to make any chosen art I choose to participate in more efficient.

There is not such thing as an ultimate street fighting system no matter what BS some people spout but there are systems out there that can show you how to become a more well rounded fighter and from my own personal expeariance both JKD and FMA I have personally found to be amongst the best and teaching to to become a more complete fighter all depending on how much work your willing to put into it that is.

Just training in anything does not make you good simply because the system has a good reputation. You can become a good fighter training in a system that has a bad rep too. All depends on how hard you want to work at it or not as the case may be.

Best regards

Pat

 

must admit he has a point.

 

Sorry about the long post

 

I also would like to share with people who say "those who do JFJKD are blindly following one man" are badly missunderstood. Infact the "daily decerase" mentality applies to even his teachings. "When you understand movement you don't need style" is one of his well known quotes!

The following article is by Adam Chan a great instructor in Vancouver who does not even class himself as JKD but seems to evaluate the vision of the likes of bruce better than most JKD groups i've encountered. What led Bruce to the idea of learning to fence with your hands & feet? Adam Chan has very close friends who Bruce knew well, trained with and learned from Bruce from the start. They were well established fighters in their own disciplin. Leo Fong, Jesse Glover to give a couple examples

The main reason why he wrote this was because, JKD is often a laughing stock in the "reality based self defence or close quater combatives " communities (As it seems to be also with the ring fighter likes of Master Betty)- the reason is because public JKD violates the most basic common sense principle of self defence such as assuming and emphasizing an on guard postion while dancing around, emphasize on faking n drawing, trapping "sequences" etc. BUT if these folks had an idea of how Bruce actually fought when he did, I think they would relax their mouths.

here's the article since the facebook link doesnt work alot of times. They are not my posisiton on everything but I believe he has very useful info there that I deemed useful to share.



"Quite a few people have imposed that I do JKD ; I am flattered and honored but I am not a JKD practitioner. I never had one JKD lesson in my life. I was and still am inspire by Bruce but being inspire does not make me qualify to say I teach JKD. I never found an interpretation of Jeet Kune Do that suited my needs I guess. When a man dies, his art is inevitably left for interpretation by others and today I would like to consider some of these interpretations in hopes to invite discussion and learn from my JKD friends.

Interptetations:
1 JKD as a martial arts system
2 JKD as a martial arts concept
3 JKD as a philosophy


JKD as a martial arts system
THis is popularize as original JKD sometimes and I guess the basic premise is to only do , practice and refine what Bruce Lee did physically as a fighting art in his life time. And this system is divide into different period in his life ( seattle, oakland, LA ) When I look at that premise, the first question I have is: if people are going to try to do what he did, are they going to do what he taught or what he use in a real fight? IS there a difference?

When I was younger and I was into researching Bruce Lee, I made sure not to believe in the general martial arts media,; the only source that I believe in was the people that actually train with him. And according to people who actually knew him , train with him and in some case actually saw him get **** off or in a real fight, this is what he did :

In seattle he just close on people with straight punches combined with a fencing lunge as soon as he felt intent, follow up with blasting and used pressure sticking as a back up plan. His close apparantly was so explosive, non-telegraphic and fast that most people he moved in on could not make a simple response before they were hit. Supposedly, as his martial arts skill evolved, his methods change. However, according to his LA students , the tactic didn't seem to change at all when he was serious : Dan Inosanto ( LA student) , " when ever he was serious about a fight , he would move in with a blast" . Dan Lee (LA student) said Bruce was bouncing , sparring and playing around but as soon as Bruce was hit, Bruce got **** off and move in on him and blast him to a KO . Ted Wong ( LA student) said that when ever he was sparring , Bruce would be bouncing and moving around but whenever he got serious he would be motionless and as soon as you are about to move , he would be on you with whatever tool he wanted. Even in HK before he died , someone climb over his fence and challenge him to a fight , Bruce close with one kick and it was over. Or during a challenge fight on the set of enter the dragon he dance and spar with the guy but as soon as things got serious, he again close , trap and pummel the guy.

So it seems that there is a common theme according to those who knew him : whenever he was playing he would move around and spar ( SPARRING METHOD) but whenever he was serious or **** off he was able to read people's intent and close with an attack sucessfully before most people can react ( FIGHTING METHOD). This seem to be a common thread from his early to later fighting method. Essentially, this tactic is basically like the quick draw artists of the old west: you sense intent and you draw first and shoot him dead before he have a chance to even touch his gun. And when I think about it , it defintely make sense . If you knew someone is about to shoot you , would you a) step back, pull your gun out , bounce around and fake a couple of times and then shoot the guy ? or b) wait for him to shoot first then shoot back? or c) draw first and shoot him dead since you knew you had a high proven chance of sucess? He consistenly use the last tactic when the situation got serious and why not ? I suppose thats why he called it Jeet kune Do, the way of the intercepting fist. So if his tactic didn't change throughout his career, what did? It seem that what did change was the tools - from machine gun punches to one punch/ kick kill ability.

Another interesting thing according to those that knew him was that Bruce got hit a few times by people much slower than he was when he use his sparring methods: Dan Lee hit him square in the jaw , Herb got him with a upper cut in the mouth etc , this is normal because everyone gets hit when they spar. However , no one he move on ever stop him or came close to touching him when he used his quick draw fighting method, I like that. This included air force boxing champs, Ex pro boxer, Judo champion, Kali teacher, amature boxing champion etc.

For me, when I was a kid, I only wanted to learn Jeet Kune Do for self defence not for sport and as a result I was only interested in the fighting method and not the sparring method ( 90% of what is taught in public) . I was not interested in what he did when he was playing and sparring with his friends but I was only interested in what he did when he was serious in a real fight or when he was **** off - in another words I was only interested in the real stuff haha! The problem is 90% of JKD in the public seems to be teaching his sparring method but not his personal fighting method...

Years later I found the reason why : when I got a chance to meet his students , they said Bruce did not wanted people to know what he was up to, he would teach his sparring method but would never show his fighting method. According to one of Bruce's student, Bruce Lee once said " why should I teach someone to beat me? " . In 2011 looking around in MA , it obvious now that morality has gone out the window , trash talking , bragging , picking fights , glorifying violence - all common marital arts behavior . Perhaps Bruce saw the future when he refuse to share his personal methods.

So looking at some of the key attributes that made up the fighting method - what he did when he was serious: THE THREE KEY ATTRIBUTES

1 Being able to read intent - did this came natural to him? Is there a way to develop it ?
2 Being able to move with his direct tools - what was his direct attacking techniques? Can anyone learn it?
3 Being able to move explosively enough to score on experienced people before they can make a simple response - how does one develop that kind of speed in movement? Is it just about speed?

Since Bruce said he didn't want to teach his personal fighting method to people, I wonder if people who claim to teach JKD after he died can help me achieve those 3 things he didn't teach and here is my opinion /assumptions:

1 Being able to read intent like Bruce - a) natural ability- I don't have it b) happens naturally if you are used to people attacking you - in that case no need to take JKD c) Specialized training - Can JKD teach me that , the ability to read the non-physical ? Hmmm what is the non physical ? what is the supplemental training for it? Would the common school be able to train that non physcial stuff like reading intent or even know it exist ? Most are still only talking about half beats and broken timing ..

2 Being able to learn his ( Bruce) direct tools- Motor learning is a GENERAL thing, each human being inevitablly will move differently as it should be but can I learn the general pattern of movement itself from JKD lesson? - Off course!!! awesome. Time to take some lesson but if you were to just learn the GENERAL movement , do one need lesson? hmm not sure , gotta think about that one ....

3 Being able to move explosively like Bruce through JKD lesson ? - I don't think so , if it was possible , there would be JKD teachers all over the world moving explosively like Bruce Lee's speed. O wait, actually in the last 10 years on the scene , there's finally a JKD teacher named Tommy Carruthers that can move like Bruce but ironically JKD people critize him and most who criticize him can't move that well at all , unbelievable. I found that weird because If I was a JKD guy , I would be happy that finally someone can move like that ...

Some people have suggested that this " quick draw idea" is basic simple stuff and when I hear that my response is , if it's so simple and low level ,why can't you do it or why can't anyone do it like him OR why couldn't anyone stop him when he used it?

Another thing about his back up system is that it went from the reliance of pressure sticking to simply pot shotting holes according to his last private student (Ted Wong )but the thing is in my opinion after the first beat since he was getting people before they can react , it matter very little what he did to finish someone once they were that screwed. "
Adam Chan is yet to post his ideas on JKD as a concept and as a philosophy. But I thought I'd share this with people who believe sparring was the be all and end all of full contact training. The context for sparring needs to be defined before sparring content. I have admiration for any instructor who does that. be it with sparring, ch sao, tui shou, hubud, rolling hands, environmental drills, senario drills, fighitng from stance,or fighting from neutral.

 

Firstly you have to ask yourself. How long has he been practicing FMA and to what intensity? Just dabbling in any art does not give you a good foundation in it either.

Also I don't care if your Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan or Hongkong pingpong gonewrong. If someone sticks you in your back or when your not looking then you die no matter what art you do.

But ignoring training in knife is more dangerous to you. You ignore the knife at your peril and the people who have a better foundation in weapons than most are the FMA guys. And don't tell me street fights don't involve weapons.

Find a good FMA instructor and they will help increase your chances of surviving a weapons encounter.

Notice I never said winning. I said surviving as no one who goes into such an encounter comes out unscathed and any decent FMA practitioner will tell you that.

And just because a good FMA practitioner does not carry an obvious weapon does not mean they are rendered useless. If you think that you know very little about FMA.

Best Regards

Pat

 

I just found this thread on the front page... my is it interesting!

This post is just my thoughts on several different posts in this thread but I do have Tuhon Pat and Master Betty in mind..

Tuhon Pat, you have said many things that I wanted to say...
on side note, I went to school in Hackney

Master Betty...

I am a student of Guro Bob's and have been for a number of years. I know the guys in the video that you were criticising... I have sparred with them and they are both very talented! The fact that they are not wearing gloves may have something to do with the energy you saw on display in that video... I also think it's very unfair to judge the career of an instructor that has spanned longer than the age of many MAP members' by just one or two videos.

Guro Bob Breen, IS a very talented martial artist and he has some exceptional students past and present. I don't know them all, especially since I am a relatively new student considering how long Guro Bob has been teaching, add to this fact that many of his past students have gone on to be instructors themselves (in multiple styles) after Guro Bob introduced so many styles and methods to the UK and Europe. The fact remains that many execptional instructors and competitors and champions in this country have been students of Guro Bob.

Anyone reading this will have noticed my referring to Pat and Bob as Tuhon and Guro, respectively. It's because I believe in respect, good manners and etiquette. They are my seniors in martial arts and I choose to address them as such. I think being respectful and courteous are things that develop and go hand in hand within all martial arts training but maybe I'm too optimistic and niave?

different paths that reach the same goal are all equally effective, they don't deserve criticism for not being the path you chose.

 

Hi Path_one thanks for the respects I all to often refer to Bob Breen as Grand Master because that is what he is. His knowledge and time spent both teaching and promoting the martial arts as a whole and what he has done for the arts here in the UK and beyond he more than deserves it.

But you can call me Pat. Like Bob I'm not too hung up on titles.

Best regards

Pat

 

Thanks Pat,

I didn't think you would be but I felt to make a point of it in my post, hope I didn't ramble too much!

all the best

 

No I think you made your point clear and I'm still waiting for Master Betty to answer my question but I won't hold my breath me thinks.

Best regards

Pat

 

pat, some of us have better things to do than worry about a post youve made - as it so happens ive just spent the last 10 hours travelling, including a flight to germany. Get off the high horse.

As it so happens, I said if thats what the guys call sparring then I wouldnt go - that was it. nothing about them not having on gloves. get my guys to spar without glvoes as well - it looks a damn sight better than that.

In the future, read the posts and try to understand them instead of going "ZOMG!!! HE SAID SOME BAD CRAP ABOUT SOMEONE I BUTT WORSHIP!!!! MUST TRY TO WIN THE INTERNETZ AGAINST HIM NOW!!!!"

It's a little childish.

At the end of the day, a video of somebody that they choose to use to represent themselves is a far better way to judge somebody than the acknowledgements of people like yersels on tinta nets. As soon as you can tell me something theyve acieved in the sporting world thats atually worth it, dont even bother trying to use the facthat they claim to teach muay thai/BJJ/boxing fighters etc. It doesnt mean anything.

 

Selective hearing is it. Ive already named a couple of people who hold European titles in MUAY THAI and world titles in stick fighting but of course if you want more how about European titles in BJJ? David Onuma. British titles in MMA? Neil McLeod. So no its not childish in wanting a response to a claim you made. You said they can't spar I and others said they can you said show me their champions so I have then you chose to ignore it and harp on about how all
JKD guys only claim to be street fighters that's why thy don't do sport.

Selective reading. Hearing and views. And no I don't worship Bob. Go back again and READ MY POSTS CAREFULLY.

You like I said obviously have a beef about JKD and I think its more of a grudge. And like I said if you hate it that much why do you even bother lurking here. Why not stick to your uber fantastic ultimate street fighting Muay Thai system you train in then?

 

like I said you need to read my posts properly. I never mentioned the guys in the video or the fact that they were not wearing gloves. Having fought in Thai Boxing. Kick Boxing. Boxing. Wrestling. Sport Stick Fighting. NHB Stick fighting. On the street. On the doors I based my comments on actually training with Bob and knowing many other people who have trained with him who have because of his training have won numerous full contact titles in numerous disciplines and I have named but a few who YOU have chose to ignore. You made a blanket statement trying to give the impression that Bob's guys don't know how to spar. I countered with facts and named champions in sports you wanted to hear about.

You also jumped to conclusions that all JKD guys avoid sports because there uber street fighters. I showed you with fact that this is not so and that even I don't believe that BS retorict. So I ask again read my posts and tell me how you can tell people Bob's guys cant spar. And using one video clip of two guys playing is not proof.

Show me videos of you and tell me what full contact titles you have wonand I bet I can match it with titles that Bob's guys have won. Instead of trying to bitch about how ALL JKD Guys only claim to be street fighters.

 

Oh and what titles would these be? Lol you thinkhe trains his guys in thai boxing so good he can beat the thai boxers at their own game? Or the same with BJJers? Lol come off it mate, there's titles and there's titles and you clearly don't know the difference.

 

Oh! Some how according to you a person who consistently works on economical fighting methods 2 to 4 hours a day and concentrates on full contact pressure testing assault senarios /environmental drills, carefully analysing possibilities, looking for a better way to deal against random attacks from all angles with an experienced and talented instructor cannot do as well in an assault situation as a ring fighter (who only spars face to face in a ring with timed rounds and competes against people of his own weight class after a good psych up and a thorough warm up)..... But now thai boxers and BJJers cannot be beat in their own game.

Dude sort your logic out! and speak with a bit more respect to Pat even if you think I'm a nobody fairy or whatever you call it??????. He has won more titles, fought in High risk contest and has passed on more knowledge to people than most will ever gain. We are not all here to agree but no points are proved or gained by putting down people. I agree with one thing Pat says! Its not about style! Its about function and how you train it. Until you know all extents to which JKD or FMA or Krav Maga or whatever is trained you are just making a fool out of yourself here talking like you have it all just because you have trained with some amazing athletes who win games & titles to go with it. Empty your cup. we all have to from time to time we would otherwise remain prejudiced by our own preception & experiences. learning JKD shows that one can learn even from the most unexperienced fighters. Not just in what to avoid and how they fight but what an untrained mind resorts to for survival. One cannot under estimate things like that.

regards
Kevin

 

You asked for students of Bob Breen who have won full contact titles and I gave them to you. They won them FACT. They where/are training directly under Bob when the won them FACT. Just because you don't know who they are or have never met them does not mean their titles are not bonefide FACT. You ask I gave you FACT. You don't want to accept it well quite frankly my dear I don't give a dam. I cant even take you seriously anymore as you refuse to come out of your little box and accept that there are people out there in arts you don't like that may well be better than you. Accept it it happens to all of us. FACT.

Your beginning to sound like a broken record commenting on a subject you obviously don't know much about and it is clear you don't know the people in it either.

You sound just like a grumpy old man who cant accept others are doing well. Jealousy me thinks.

Come on shows what you have acheived in titles and I bet I can counter it wiu a fighter from the JKD circles.

 

Go back and read my comment again. That's the problem with you guys, a couple of lines and to you lot, it somehow becomes a whole essay that I've apparently written.

So far, nobody on this page has shown me anything to doubt my opinions. They've spouted stereotypical "we train for da street" garbage, shown poor videos and generally spat the dummy out at everything they didn't like.

Show me something different. Something worth doing that people who AREN'T JKd nuthuggers will appreciate.

 

Name the titles.

 

I've already given you people with European Muay Thai titles. BJJ European titles. British MMA Titles and I'll just throw in for good measure 32 British. 5 European and 3 World Stick Fighting titles (me). And i wont even count the people I have trained that have competed in Muay Thai. Vale Tudo. MMA. Full Contact Stick Fighting and NHB Stick Fighting So come on what you got? You see I've never heard of you either.

 

you haven't named the titles. You've said they have them. I don't have any titles, I fight professionally and I know exactly how hard a title is. You do not get any title worth having without focusing completely on the art at hand. NO JKD guy trains his guys for pro titles in britain that I'm aware of and I know the titles worth having. hell, I'm friends with a good few people who have some of them.

So again, NAME the titles, don't just say they have them.