I was curious, how do you all practice your Isshin Ryu Basics? We do them moving forward or backwards, or sideways. My understanding is that Shimabuku used these to instill muscle memory. Anyone else have comments on this. I was also wondering how many Isshin ryu students are on this forum and what their lineage is. Mike O'Leary\
Hey Mike, let me be the first. The name of my sensei is John Dritt he will be soon vying for his 7th dan. He is a student of the late Allen Wheeler, who was a student of the late Harold Long. After many years of Chinese martial arts I find this particular syle of Isshinryu very interesting and enjoyable. We explore all aspects of Isshinryu including the different pressure points and meridians as well as the southern Chinese influences of the art. It's interesting to me because of numerous years of Wing Chun. I see similar "hands" but with new bunkai or application. As far as charts are concerned we do them a little different than a lot of schools which do things similar to what Angi Uezu has shown. We stack our hands on many of the upper body techniques and chamber our uppercut below the pectorial. In addition we do not "C" step when we strike. Although "C" stepping or circular stepping is retained in all the kata. We are traditional in the sense we honor Isshinryu core principles and practices but we also like to explore different concepts that may be derived from Isshinryu's traditional techniques. For an example, the Okinawan Karate do Union, which Allen Wheeler founded, hosted a seminar with Sifu Rich Mooney in which the kung fu grandmaster helped us see addition application within our kata with a five element Bagua/Hsing-I flavor. It was revealing and enlightening. There is so much in our art that has not, and is not, explored, I look forward to that exploration and meeting other Isshinryu stylist down the road to further my knowledge. Afterall wasn't Shimabuku's art a work in progress. I don't know how many how times I'ver heard longtime practioners say that when Shimabuku came to the U.S. some of his students were surprised to see Shimabuku doing things differently than they remember on the island of Okinawa. His response was, "how did I show you", when the practioner showed him how he was taught, Shimabuku would then say, "do it that way".
My lineage is through AJ ADvincula, I started training with him in 1995 or 6, prior to that I originally started with Don Shapland in 1981. Isshin Ryu is not my first style of martial arts. I agree with much of what you said about experimenting with our kata and techniques and that we have much to learn by looking outside of Isshin ryu to see similarities. One thing I am quite adamant about is that in doing this we do not change Isshin ryu. When we teach classes or pass on information regarding Isshin ryu we must be careful we do not get in the trap of changing it. What shimabuku taught was as you say, a work in progress. Therefore our basic cirriculum should be "what shimabuku taught" and we need to identify it as such. Pressure point theory for example was never part of Shimabukus teachings as some practice it today. Pressure point theory has its place, but it is not Isshin ryu. It is ok to personally explore subjects such as this and it is ok to apply application to our kata as long as we realize that Shimabuku's applications are one of the things that define Isshin ryu. I also have experimented with different bunkai application but when teaching it explain to students what is Shimabuku's and what is mine. When teaching new students the applications for Seisan, for example, the "standard" taught is Shimabukus, once they learn this and can demonstrate a certain degree of confidence in applying the moves I will introduce them to "my" own interpretations or interpretations that I have learned from others. Our standard will always be what I beleive Shimabuku taught. In the cases of where Shimabuku changed kata, ie: Sunsu, the sequence of crane stance near the end, where prior to 1963 he lifted the leg, after that he kept the leg on the ground, I have asked some of the first generation students why they think he did this and this is the answer I got. " Shimabuku was always testing stronger vs faster, as he got older he found his balance was better with the leg on the ground, it may have been slower but it was stronger and for him at the time offered an older man more balance." I now teach both ways with an explanation. In our dojo I have several older people who do it with the kicking leg on the ground and others who still use the crane stance as he originally taught. The key is that all the students that have trained to this level understand the "why" of both moves and how the development from one to the other occurred. If we allow the evolution to change what we teach as the standard, we will eventually lose the "essence" of Isshin ryu and develop something so far removed that we will no longer be able to see the path that shimabuku was embarking upon. By following the same path, we allow ourselves the opportunity to reach the same point Shimabuku did and to develop from there. Its like following a map, we all start at the same point. When we reach the point on the map where Shimabuku stopped, hopefully we will be ready to strike out on our own and be able to use the lessons he taught as a foundation for deciding on what comes next. If we change the map constantly, over generations we will lose the starting point. Mike O'Leary
"I am curious here, Why do you not "C" step? This step helps maintain balance, I am curious why you would retain it in the kata and not in practice?" I have asked this question myself many times to many people. What it boils down to is speed and practicality. The "C" step does help balance but I feel the main purpose or principle, in my opinion and of others, is the cocking or placement of your hips and while advancing and striking. As you know you can develop tremendous power from that hip rotation from circular stepping. Then there is the undeniable scientific fact that the quickest way from point A to point B is a straight line. Advancing or closing the gap quickly while stepping forward and dragging and planting the rear foot while striking also generates good power if you continue to use your hips and execute the Isshinryu punch "soft" until the point of impact. Balance is maintained by retaining the seisan stance. However in a real world situation many times your closing distance can be anywhere from one foot to ten feet. You have to be able to deliver your punch or strike at close quarters without stepping or even at most a half step. So, in summation, I think we practice the best of both worlds. We execute the traditional "C" step in kata and we step straight in the charts. And we discuss it thoroughly. Now concerning your worry that we stray away from traditional Isshinryu and are leaving the original concepts and principles behind, don't worry. Shimabuku visited Harold Long and Allen Wheeler's dojo and was very happy with what he saw. Both Long and Wheeler had the highest respect for Shimabuku and his teachings and have devoted their lives to Shimabuku's Isshinryu. Mike you must agree though that Shimabuku's Isshinryu was changed by Shimabuku himself while in Okinwawa and after he retired from teaching the marines. He was always refining, experimenting and coming up with new ways to accomplish the same thing. And as far as pressure points are concerned, we examine those concepts within the structure and techniques of the art. We do not go outside and invent something. Every strike or application we use is derived from the 8 kata. That is as important to us as it is to you. It is simply another way of looking at what is already there. And it is by no means as significant as the fundamental principles or the art as Shimabuku intended. We sincerely honor the genius of Shimabuku and do not in any way try to offer another "version" of Isshinryu. Finally concerning the straight step versus the "C" step, I will ask my sensei whether Shimabuku was shown that during his visits to the U.S. or whether in fact Shimabuku himself offered it up as a suggested alternative. I myself would be curious to hear the answer to that question. I'll let you know what I find out. I would love to hear what your sensei has to say about all this. I'm always interested in the knowledge and wisdom imparted by men of his stature and knowledge. Here is an article on Isshinryu and pressure points I found by doing a search. I'm not totally sold on it but it makes some interesting assertions. http://www.blackbeltmag.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=185&keyword=thomas&summary=1&startsum=1
I "hear" what you are writing and I feel the tone and sentiment. I appreciate your desire to keep Isshinryu pure. It is admirable and all too rare to promote that way of thinking. As I do my thing I hope I am living up to Shimabuku's vision. That is why I try to talk to as many of the old Isshinryu guard as possible. That's why I would love to meet and talk to Sensei Advincula. Does Sensei Advincula have a tape where he explains kata bunkai as explained to him by Shimabuku? I'd love to see it. Also, is he still active? I come to southern California once in awhile in particular Encinitas & Carlsbad, I'd love to meet him. When you asked if kata and practicality was separate, kata by its definition answers that question. I'm sorry if I deviated from the original thread question but I enjoy conversing with you on the forum. I've been hogging the thread so I'm going to lay out and watch the Academy Awards. Hopefully some other Isshinryu stylists will chime in while I'm away.
In response: 1. You can contact Sensei on the Isshin Kai site.... on yahoo groups. He is in Oceanside just a few miles down the road from carlsbad. If you are interested in training PM me.... How long have you been training in IR by the way? My comment about kata and practicality was focused on your comment about maintaining C steps in the kata but not in basics. I was asking if you fought one way but practiced kata another. Kata is the basis of the sylabus and of the techniques of fighting. I can argue about your basis for dropping it in basics but it would need some "one on one" to demonstrate. I also trained with someone years ago that did the same with the C step, I have since changed once we realize about transitioning and maintaining balance. Without the C step we have to commit weight to one foot..... I'll show you my sweep one day... never fails on those that dont step in this fashion. Mike O'Leary
Mike, Well it's a shame that this forum is absent of Isshinryu practioners or perhaps our threads are uninteresting. Unfortunately my phone long distance account does not include Canada! Question, are you familar with: http://www.oikka.com/ Does Uezu's stuff follow Sensei Advincula or are there fundamental differences in kata and philosophy?
There are some basic differences but not in as much as you would see. I studied under Uezu students for about 10 years, much of what Advincula Sensei does is simply put a better understanding. Much of the Uezu lineage that I trained with simply did kata and sparred, did some drills, The basic connection between kata and self defense was missing, the basic body mechanics was misunderstood. It was evident to me that Advincula sensei had a better understanding of things after watching him for 5 minutes. Initially the first time I met Advincula Sensei was at a kobudo seminar. he taught basics for the weapons, taught the difference in stances and how it related to the weapons, how balance differ's and so forth. Before that I had been taught what I have heard reffered to as "Karate with a stick". Understanding what is happening when you have a weapon in your hand and how it relates to your body is a big part of it. ' The kata look similar, but there is definatly a difference. Mike
Mike I also study Isshinryu and My insturctors instructor learned Isshinryu from Steve Young ( I believe) and RyuKyu Kempo from George Dillman. My instructors train under Chris Thomas. We do all of our basics moving.
Steve Young, ??? the name does not ring a bell, but Chris Thomas does, I beleive he is on the Isshin Kai list. Sensei has always maintained that basics and kata should be connected. In other words how we do the basics should be the same as we do the same technique in the kata. Mike O'Leary
Mike I have found that it helps when you start Kata if you do basics moving. I know that for our kids classes we have them start standing still.
I cant agree more on the idea of somethings missing from our art. Since my instructors learn from a kyushu jitsu teacher we have learned either Tuite or Pressure Point application for all of our techniques. I like to say we are learning Isshinryu with Ryukyu Kempo flavor. It certainly has oppened my eyes to the limitless potential in our art
Mike Can I ask why you feel that Pressure points dont have a place in Isshinryu? I know that Chris Thomas wrote an interesting article on Isshinryu and Pressure Points for Black Belt magazine. He contended that Shimabuku did have Pressure Point applications. I personally dont think there is only one application for each move of a kata. I believe that there is limitless potential with even the simplest movements. When we do a stack to the hip and then a c-step and strike you can be attakcing multiple targets. The only reason I wonder if some of the deeper parts of the art were lost is the time frame issue of some of the Isshinryu people today. Realistically when the Marines trained with Shimabuku they only trained for a year to a year and a half. We all realise that you can devote a life time to our art and never fully understand it all. I dont think that it was possible for Shimabuku to explain all of his application in such a short time frame.One of things I have been taught is to learn the Kata and then start applying my own bunkai to it.This is my own personal belief but I feel that what trasitions us from just Karate students to Martial artists is when we start to make the art our own. Someone could come to our dojo and see 4 of us doing the same kata but with slight variatioins from each other. I think if nothing else you need to take into account basic body types. I am a big guy and I cant move like Shimabuku so I need to adapt the Kata to what works for me without changing the core movements. Shimabuku adapted other katas to his body size, thats why IMO we do a lot of stacks and we go down to one knee. This helps a smaller oponent against a larger one. When you can strike someone by putting all of your body weight into a strike it certainly gives you an advantage. On Pressure Point applications i dont see anything wrong with teaching these as a core part of Isshinryu. All of my self defense technique comes directly from Kata so I dont feel that I am moving away from traditonal Isshinryu. I might be moving away from how it is traditonally taught or how some people understand it but as long as I stay with the core motions I dont see why it is wrong to add more to my art. This is JMO
I'm off to the dojo right now so I will elaborate later tonight... first: .. Its not that I feel Pressure points "dont" have a place in IR, The thing is that if we are teaching IR then we must teach what shimabuku taught. Or..... teach what he taught, give him credit for it, then if we have developed more.... teach it as ours. I also enjoy "Playing" with bunkai but when I teach the initial bunkai we teach a standard. That standard is as close as possible to what shimabuku taught it. You stated that many of the marines only trained for one year. Actually a tour of duty at that time was average 12 to 18 months. I agree with your stand on this but adding things because they may not have gotten all of the lesson is going beyond IR, and then were back to the same story as my first paragraph. Teaching pressure point as a "core" of IR falls into this. I have no problem teaching pressure point, but it is not what shimabuku taught. I realize that shimabuku was adapting things himself, but frankly I am not going to stand up and state to the world that I am as good as him therefore I am off to start my own Isshin Ryu Plus....... Does this make sense? I'm not condeming the teaching of the subject, more what I'm after is to define where it came from. Mike More to come later tonight.
Not that this should be a great influence either way but my instructors train with Master Thomas and he is an 8th degree black belt in RyuKyu Kempo and a 7th Degree in Isshinryu with 30 years of training. I know that there are other instuctors with equally as impressive rankings but I have been to many of master Thomas's seminars and what he says makes perfect sense. We have literally broken down an entire kata. The last seminar we did Wansu. I would certinaly suggest if you ever have the oportunity to attend a seminar to check it out. You can certainly disagree but I have seen his applications and I have a hrad time arquing with success. JMO.
OK, tell me more about him and where I can read more about him online. I'm always interested in what learned martial artists have to say. Can you give us a brief outline of what he says about Wansu?
I have not studied Isshin Ryu but have experience in other styles of trad karate. The view I have formed and from listening to my instructors is that the C-step is used primarily when practising basic techniques and kata. It not only helps to chamber the hip but also to maintain a low centre of gravity and therefore balance. For free sparring, however, both the C-step and straight lunges are used - it depends to some extent on situation as well as which techs you favour. In simple terms, C-steps lend themselves to angling off opponents as well as spinning/turning combinations. Straight lunges are more of a route 1 attack line for front punches (jabs) and front/side kicks. As an aside I have also trained in grappling arts. A modified C-step is used is used in many of the foot throws, sweeps and hooks. What it does is take the attackers leg around the opponents front/rear foot. Similarly when entering for hip throws you can use a C-step to enter to help initiate the 180 degree turn-in. In these instances when grappling it is esstential to keep your centre of gravity low (i.e. lower than your opponent) not only for the techs to work but to also avoid being counter-thrown. Hope those thoughts/ideas help..........?
I checke don-line and there isnt a whole lot of info. I know he has written 5 Pressure Point books with George Dillman. You can see some of Dillmans PP knockouts on his website. On Wansu he did a break down of the entire kata. He incorporated alot of tuite and Pressure Point strikes. I wish I could break it down here but I dont remeber all of his applications. When we leave a seminar we hope to have learned 1 or 2 new things. I wish I could be more help :bang:
