WV, This is just a guess, but you sound as if you may come from Yang Sau-chung's lineage. Those guys like to fight, too! I really like the martial aspect, personally, of T'ai Chi and train it like crazy, but in my experience I am very unusual in doing so even in my own school. My Sifu certainly does emphasise it for those who want it, but there are only a very few of us who want it. So, he works us out pretty regularly, though and I felt like I could fight pretty well after about 5 years. That was almost 15 years ago, though, and now there isn't a whole lot out there that impresses me anymore. We definitely train for every defensive motion to be offensive and every offensive motion to be defensive simultaneously, no "1, 2" counts in techniques, just "1!" There is incredible speed developed in that process. My Sifu's uncle, the late Wu Ta-chi, seldom did forms as an adult, only when teaching. His personal training was to wash his clothes every morning (in a horse stance in front of the basin) and then mop the training floor of the school using stepping from the spear forms. That was it, and no one could touch this guy. Cheers, -HKP
? And you think pushes and blocks will help you in a real fight against big? tall? opponents. Please dont try this at home. MF
I regret that I don't know much about the history/lineage of the martial arts that I learn. And I don't quite know their names in English! I learnt Yang Tai Chi qiqong from Grandmaster Tsai (蔡松芳) ten years ago. And now I am learning "Six Harmonies Eight Methods" (LHBF).
Madfrank, you are always challenging people here and there without providing related facts, experiences, or even theories. What a pity!
Do i need to spell out again what happens in real fights in mine and other peoples experiences. You are wrong. I have done this before. You Cant block punches at real fighting distance which is conversation distance isnt physically possible. there is a little thing called reaction time and by the time your body is ready to react you have been hit. That is why you train at competition distance and with attacks you know are coming, it is the only way to make blocks work. Pushes useful for fighting schoolgirls i suppose? Why push someone when you can punch them? before you say i havent explained things before make sure you know that I've explained this all before? MF
The style of T'ai Chi Ch'uan that I do doesn't use blocks, actually, we use interceptions. And I can certainly intercept a typical punch at conversation distance. We train, "They don't move, we don't move. They move, we move faster." That has been a T'ai Chi axiom for hundreds of years. One of the main advantages of soft style (real soft style) is incredible speed and the ability to change direction in mid-application. The (to my thinking) s l o w punch of the average fighter is a piece of cake to deal with, I can always hit those guys before they hit me. with a real top notch puncher (very rare), I would hit them at the same time they hit me, at worst. In that case, I would neutralize his strike and trap him into a wrestling match. Snap, crackle, pop! We have four methods of application: Fa; a push for sending someone a considerable distance away, characterized as "distance, no impact." Very handy for clearing space around you when dealing with multiple opponents, or pushing opponents into other objects. Na; manipulating the opponent's body parts into two equal and opposite circles, for locking and breaking joints and bones. Ta; striking the opponent with a short sharp shock to make them stumble or otherwise interfere with their focus or direction. Characterised as "impact, no distance." Hua; Neutralizing an incoming force using redirection. The person comes in and lands on nothing, and we can exploit the resulting openings. Very disconcerting for them. I don't know if any of this qualifies me for fighting girls, but I'll let you guys know if it ever comes up... :love: -HKP
MF, if you think that your opponent is faster and stronger than you are, you'd better run! Never mind your so called punches! Our kind of pushes could be more powerful than punches, depending on the situations. Esp. when both hands are used. We do not necessarily use our palms in our pushes. Blocks/interceptions normally do not just go by themselves! We are not passive during a fight! Sometimes we set our opponent up. So their attack are well anticipated. In some movements, a block with one hand increases the power of the attacking hand. That is internal martial arts. I am not saying that one style of MA is better than others. A martial artist is good if he works hard on the training. There are no short cuts.
Hi as far as i have trained trying to block an attack at a very close distance is very difficult in any martial art. The idea of Tai Chi is to get in close and connect with their arms and feel the strike. In this way you can deflect the attack. Any block is a waste of time no matter if you have a good distance or in close much better to move out the way or guide the attack else where. This way you can feel the intention a block will push them away and leave a gap you do not want. As for pushes they are a useful tool to practise structure of a movement with out hitting your partner over and over again. I make it clear that it is easy to turn it in to a punch and will practise it as a punch as well.
There are no pushes in taiji. There are also no blocks in taiji. It's one of the fundamental ideas of the style that any defence is also (or is converted immediately into) an attack. That's why anything remotely like a sweep/throw is matched with a chin na (type) technique. Also, the idea of a block, using force on force, is against every principle of the internal arts The books/magazines that show someone using 'Lu' to sweep an attacker away have absolutely no idea about real applications.
1. I mentioned pushes and blocks when I talked about training as a strong fighter in as short a time as possible. 2. We do not limit ourselves on using only the movements from the forms of our style. Otherwise, many good things will pass you by. 3. If we apply the tai-chi methods on the pushes & blocks, they are tai-chi. If we apply the method of hsing-i on the pushes & blocks, they are hsing-i. So if I tell you now that we are told to practice also 300 kicks a day. Will you go about telling me that that is no internal MA, just because you don't see too many kicking movements? Well, it is a good exercise to think about how a front kick could be executed using the principle of internal MA and, how kicks could easily be incorporated into most of the movements of the forms.
It is a tricky thing, the nomenclature issue. We do moves (interceptions) that look like blocks, perform the function of blocks and even feel like a block to the opponent, but don't "block" using stiffness or tension the way a hard stylist would. Instead, in looseness and coordination, we actually contact, stick to and strike or trap the incoming limb all at once a split second before it strikes us. So, my teachers get miffed if I call them "blocks," because they say it gives the students the wrong idea. Pushes we call pushes, but they are really open hand (wrist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, back, hip, knee, ankle) strikes done at various speeds with various intents, see "Fa, Na, Ta, Hua" in my post above. We don't lock up our shoulders and shove. I'm sure in Chinese it is a whole different thing, but in English that is how only one school terms things (I'd never claim it to be the absolute rule for all soft style), others' mileage may vary.
Also: Anyone who has tried freeform push hands exercises knows that statement is completely wrong. Practically all the classic taiji texts stress the importance of sticking, following and close quarter training/fighting. While there are some set two-person routines, the goal of that training is always to get to the level where you don't have to follow the normal pattern. Now shotokan karate on the other hand...
your pushes are more powerful have more concussive effct than punches of course Blocks interception are you realising the difference between parries and blocks here? Parries(sp) can work from a fence blocks dont! You set up a person in a street fight to intercept wot hes going to do. this'lll work in a dojo please dont try it in reality. Well ive been training 20 plus years so im kind of aware of that one MF
? Youve never been there have you? and its easy to keep implying im soft or frightened over the net from china grow up. and what do you mean when you say my punches are 'so calles punches' MF
Duh i know this it wasnt me who said there were please read and try to understand the posts before you correct them. MF
? Anyone who read your previous post would realise youre completely wrong you said in your last post there are no blocks as anyone whose done real tai chi knows now your argueing saying it works in tai chi training MF
frank 20 years thats a long time what style/s have you trained in? have you tryed wing chun yet? i dont practice it personally but am aware that they fight at "conversation distance" .
I never did and I never would say there are blocks in taiji. If the teachers and the classics show us anything, it's that intercepting an attack is only the very beginning of the movement. To stick and follow someone (and their intention) is to turn their attack against them, not to block and make a separate strike. That's a waste of your and their energy and against every internal principle. Try something called push hands (tui shou) if you don't believe me.
: Yup tried WC didnt like it a lot of my friends have trained longer than 20 years there is a 10th dan jujitsu guy in my home town who has been training bout 60 years so im a pup to him MF
