Irrelevant. If I'd trained as a plumber and I did an electrician's course and started doing electrical engineering, would you say i was still a plumber? It'd be interesting to see somebody try, but I don't think we're going to find anybody crazy enough. Well, fair enough. And you certainly have a point that it's not only the training methods that make a martial art. But personally I don't think what machida is doing is similar enough to karate to go by that name from the standpoint of technique, either.
Yes it will! What is sloppy about Machida's technique in kicking? His excellent base and balance? His good posture? His excellent timing?
Wow, you're calling Machida's kicking sloppy, and that amateurs kick better then him. WOW. That's so lame, I cannot even insult you. He has excellent technique, speed, and balance with them.
Well, he fights in a boxing stance, he doesn't chamber his round kicks and he just generally looks more like a kickboxer than a karateka.
His stance is just a function of ruleset. He wont adopt a more traditional side on stance as MMA allows kicks to the legs. The stance we're used to seeing Karateka in is just the one they happen to use for sparring which follows different rules. Compare Kyok guys to Shotokan guys and see the difference in their stances for example. I think he does chamber his kicks, more so than a MT guy would for example. His leg rises with the knee more bent than most MT guys. In any case the chamber is simply a place the leg passes through during the performance of a kick, not a position in itself if you see what I mean. He looks more like a kickboxer because again, he's training for MMA ruleset, not the traditional Shotokan reverse punch for the win sparring Honestly, he looks like a Karateka/TKD guy to me. Mitch
I couldn't disagree more. To me, his stance is one of the most obviously Shotokan things about him. Compared to boxers and MT guys he fights, he's got a much longer stance, he's much more flat-footed, his back is straighter and more vertical, and his head is further away from the opponent. I see the sort of loose chamber I'd expect in kumite. I definitely think of that as a Shotokan mawashi geri, albeit a relaxed one. It's more whip-like and less club-like than what I think of as a Thai kick. See the mawashi geri at 0:24 below: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkGP0AM14F0"]YouTube - KARATE SHOTOKAN JKA Kumite[/ame] I disagree; the commentator during Evans v. Machida definitely did too (over and over and over); but we're at an impasse if we just say "generally, he does," or "generally, he doesn't." Any more specifics?
I agree with TKDMitch and Mitlov, if you watch closely, you can see him chamber his kicks. In regards to your "that's irrelevant" comment in response to my "he has been training Shotokan since age 3"; No, it isn't irrelevant. Your original comment was "Just because a lot of the techniques he uses look like Karate doesn't mean we can say he is a karateka fighting mma". Note that you admitted that "his techniques look like karate" - you then went on to say "but just because they look like karate doesn't mean it is", which I refuted by noting that he has trained Shotokan for most of his life. It looks like karate because it is karate.
His kicks dont look MT because his body does not move right, he does not have the body allignment or body movement of a MT kick. And when he does kick, it seems its not too precise. While Im sure he could floor me with one kick, his kicks are kinda sloppy, but no more then most karate, when the viewer comes from a TKD back ground where I believe there is alot more emphasis on kicking, and how to do it swifter and more fluid. Although, that is comming from sport TKD, and im sure sport tkd kicks and their movement just would not apply in MMA. His stance isnt boxing in anyway, mostly because his feet are all wrong, his body is all wrong, and he doesnt hold his guard in even a remotely good boxing way, its defs not MT because his body is angled wrong to make use of his tools.
Machida v. Soukoudjou: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFYop6KgqK8"]YouTube - Lyoto Machida vs Rameau Sokoudjou[/ame] At 3:17, he throws a mid-level round kick. Even setting aside the overall mechanics of the kick (which appear to me to be karate, not Muay Thai), he's striking with the ball of the foot instead of the shin. That's a mawashi geri right there, not a Thai kick, no doubt about it. At 4:59, he throws a head-level round kick. The chambering before and after the kick is clearly visible, and he appears to strike with the ball of the foot. Machida highlight vid: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMYJc1OkttY"]YouTube - Best Lyoto Machida HL[/ame] Check out the karate-esque kicks at 1:44 (chambered round kick, striking surface is the ball of the foot), 1:49 (another chambered round kick, see 2:24 for another view), 2:27, 3:33, etc. And with both of these videos, feel free to watch them for stance, posture, guard, and punching technique. For example, a gyaku zuki (karate cross punch) at 4:01. None of these things are done in a kickboxing or Muay Thai manner.
If you were working on the pipes then yes I would say that you are still a plumber. You simply also have the other skills. No one is saying that he is pure karate, merely that his striking has come from and still continues to be karate.
Hmm... I don't think he demonstrates any of those in his kicks (compared to other kickers I've seen). His chamber is almost non-existant, and poor when it is present. As for balance, he looks like he's about to fall over. Posture? Nah, sorry. Don't buy that one - he sticks his **** out too much and leans over way too much for my liking. Timing? It's good, but like I said, I've seen better. I've done better. . Sorry, but I don't rate him highly in any of those departments. Aw c'mon, don't be a tease :love: :evil: Remember that my training is all about kicking (to the severe detriment of other skills). I am proud to say I'm a very good kicker (or I was before my hip op! But I'll get it back). You must understand I live, breathe, sleep, eat, drink and poop kicking. I come from a sport TKD background so for me it's all about the following: 1) Clean, crisp and absolutely technically perfect technique 2) Accuracy of placement 3) Ability to deliver multiple kicks on the same leg with speed, without dropping the leg or falling over By those standards I'm analysing Machida, and I simply don't like his style or think he's as good as people make him out to be. For you Machida nutriders out there, I'll make it up to you over a candelit dinner and a movie :heart: The athletes in the following videos are what I call good kickers: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc5WE1KBnNU"]YouTube - Anis-Timman sampler[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igeY-ErIBmM"]YouTube - Chloe Bruce Showreel 2008![/ame] Remember folks, we all have different tastes in martial arts.
Whilst I can see what you're getting at, I would argue that neither of those videos shows great skill in actual kicking. Acrobatics and flexibility yes, and I'm sure they could display great kicking prowess, but that isn't what those videos show. Mitch
And yet, he never does Interesting point about the tailbone. It's not as tucked as my instructors would want. But I guess there's always the whole "if it's stupid but it works" thing. And I remember Rob Redmond having a post on 24FightingChickens about a split as to whether or not to tuck your tail...at least some JKA guys reject that part of the body mechanics. All very good attributes in an acrobatic floor presentation (and there's NOTHING wrong with that!). But in a full-contact match, landing a powerful blow on the right portion of the opponent's body, and getting your feet down before they tackle or sweep you or knock you silly, is what matters...and Lyoto has a good track record with that. I don't think anybody here was saying he had pretty kicks, or technically-perfect kicks. I was pointing out the chamber, calling it a "textbook Shotokan chamber" and the like, not to say it's textbook-perfect like you would see in kihon practice, but to say that it's not a Thai round kick (which doesn't chamber at all). Only if he wears those really cute tight shorts from his early career. The surfer shorts are a total cop-out Incredible acrobatic ability, muscular control, etc, if you're defining a "kick" as a flashy technique in a floor performance. If you're defining "kick" as "hitting another person with your leg or foot," they're not so impressive. Both definitions are fine, but the very characteristics which make one type of kick good actually tends to make the other type bad, and vice versa. All that said, I don't think Machida's the best karateka kicker I've seen at all. His kicks are not the best weapon in his arsenal. Instead, what makes him brilliant is his footwork, distancing, timing, etc. His ability to evade someone, cross-punch them in the jaw, and get out of distance again, without having a finger laid on him. His kicks work, but his most dangerous weapon is most definitely his cross-punch. From the world of karate, in my opinion someone like Midori Kenji is a much more impressive kicker (as in sparring kicking, not performance kicking): [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS3xTV0NCuc"]YouTube - Kyokushin Kenji Midori Highlights by Xihyon[/ame] No argument here...
