This whole thing about not extending the toes past the knees is just ridiculous and is treated as Holy Writ. If you have ever played tennis or basketball or any sport requiring vigorous movement, you know this is nuts. If your legs are weak, then strengthen them. Do ancillary exercises. Sit horse. Do the Beggar Stance. But for God's sake don't give in and pretend to be doing something remotely related to a fighting art by just standing there double weighted and not going past your toe. My teacher thought this was the most ridiculous rule he had ever heard of. He asked me how to shoot a jump shot that way...
By allowing the knee to pass the toes, you're overloading a joint which isn't supposed to bear weight. You are also allowing your center to shift too far forward, which puts you off balance, making it easier for an opponent to uproot or destabilise you. By containing the knee's movement, and learning to sink into the kua, you are protecting the knee from damage, and strengthening your posture. I'd be interested in hearing what your understanding of 'double weighted' is? I get the feeling you've misinterpreted..
I'm not familiar with Yang style. But translating the names into their Wu style equivalents, I understand what you are saying, and I accept that I massively oversmplified things in my response to the OP. There are a few places where we turn on one leg, so it has to be the 'full' leg since the other one is off the ground! My apologies to the OP for misleading him. I suppose my point does hold true - but only in certain places! For example, what we call the 'cross hands'. (Sorry, no idea if their is an equivalent movement in the Yang style, or what it's called if their is.) From a left archery stance, we turn to the right. but rather than turning the 'empty' right foot first, we turn the 'full' left foot first. Rather than twist the left knee, we shift our centre back slightly and turn on the left heel and the right toe, before fully emptying the left leg and filling the right as we turn. That's the example I was thinking of in my earlier post. Is that the sort of thing that you were referring to?
It's - OK to extend your knee to pass your foot in dynamic motion. - not a good idea to extend your knee to pass your foot in "static" posture.
When your gravity center passes your base, the gravity will pull your body into that direction. That will give you the initial momentum to move. You lean because you want to move and not because you want to stay. In the following clip, it's better to lean back 45 degree to get a fast body spin. IMO, he didn't move his gravity center back away from his base far enough. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqnIJf3ONY8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqnIJf3ONY8[/ame]
It is ok in dynamic motion - sometimes, but not always. In Applications or drills, extending knees beyond toes is fine - as long as your knees can take it - but you do need to pay to attention to alignment. I am still pretty flexible at 55 and I have learned to compensate sometimes over extending to be more mobile. Not everyone is built like this, and each has to find what suits them. However in fixed-step Pushing Hands I do sometimes come a cropper by over extending my knee over my toes - it is very easy for the opponent to divert your push this way, as you are loaded to go into a clear void. I work on reducing this, hiding my intention when doing this -> e.g. go back immediately to non-extended knee posture and change the push/pull engagement.
I like to train "dynamic rooting - give up rooting intentional and then regain it back". Can I still train like this when I'm 80? I'm not too sure myself. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUO9nKi9zc0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUO9nKi9zc0[/ame]
IMO, the "fixed-step Pushing Hands" and "dynamic rooting" are contradiction to each other. Old XingYi saying said, "You should always move around. Even if you can't find any opening from your opponent. you should still keep moving. When you keep moving, soon or later you will find opening from your opponent so you can attack."
This is pretty much my take and practice - I just express it differently. However I am much smaller than you, so I cannot afford to land as heavily as you. In the type of exercise you are demoing, I will typically do the same, but after the turn and throw, I work on getting my landing foot down quicker, less percussively and with a bit more mobility for the next movement. As for what to when 80+, well I think you will still be training - and posting here, but yes, you might start to soften out some of your heavier steps. By the time you are 80+ I will be about 70, so I may have to curtail some of my movement as I still like to hare around - but it can't go on indefinitely.
This sounds similar to how I was taught by my Yang teacher, however our 'style' has some influence from Wu style from a couple of generations back - so it could be some transference from there! :hat: I agree here. When "in action", the 'perfect structure' can go out of the window some-what, due to the chaotic nature of fighting. When training/practicing, it is best to protect and strengthen the body, so that, should it ever have to move in an awkward way, it will have that much more reinforcement from the practice.
I have been studying TCC since 1969. I heard this business about the toe/knee from the people around Cheng Man-Ching and others for th first 10 or so years. What you get from those stances is an inability to move quickly, to shift your weight smoothly, and to strike, kick, throw or fight. Try playing any sport by following this rule. Martial arts belong to the world of sport in the broadest sense. This is one of those "man-behind-the-curtain" laws that everyone hears all the time, but too few ever really put it to the test. Or cue up some Shaolin Temple routine or an old-timer doing authentic YiJinJing on YouTube. You may be surprised to see what they are up to with all of this.
That must be your personal experience. Your appeal to authority doesn't grant it to you by default. As YouKnowWho stated, in 'action', the knee going beyond the toes is expected. However, when training, prolonged practice of this method can cause injury to the knee, as experienced by the OP.
Although the guy shoving the car is in a terrible position. EDIT: The guy in the first pick is completely off of the floor anyway, so there would be no strain on the knee, as the weight wouldn't be over-bearing.
[/quote] This is one of those "man-behind-the-curtain" laws that everyone hears all the time, but too few ever really put it to the test. [/QUOTE] More specifically it should be when the foot is flat any squatting or lunging motion should be hip dominant not knee dominant, as a general guide for newbies keeping the knee above the toes, or keeping the angle of the knee around 90 degrees is a good guide. Note flat foot and beginners.....
I'll admit, bringing the knees past the toes is a bad habit, but it is something that even I am guilty of, in Tai Chi and in Tae Kwon Do. For example: front stance, back stance, and cat stance in Tae Kwon Do, they suggest the knee stays right behind the toes when you're looking down at your feet. When practicing form, which is the foundation for the moves, this can be nitpicked and observed. When using applications, something like this can be overlooked - is this so?? How ironic, I ran into this video while writing this. I do agree with what he is describing at 7:36 of the video. Any comments?? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYrUqlwE6n8"]Tai chi walking - YouTube[/ame]
It's been months since I looked at this topic here, but apparently this problem of weakening knees is more commonplace in Tai Chi than I realized. Aside from seeing someone writing a book about it on Amazon.com, I also ran into an article by William C.C. Chen, a Tai Chi master in NYC. Here is an exerpt from one of his articles: "In recent years, there are many Tai Chi Chuan players that have knee problems. This may be the result of over-relaxation of the knee and collapsing and sinking too much on the rooted leg. Without the countervailing support of a firmly rooted foot, it places undue stress on the knee joint. Over time, such over-relaxation or collapsing may lead to weakening of the sartorius muscle and other related muscles which support the knee, causing them to strain to relieve the pressure on the knees resulting from the weight of the upper body." - William C.C. Chen - from http://www.williamccchen.com/3nails.htm
