has anyone really spoke about the benifits of shotokan in terms of phyiscal aspects? those wide and low stances really hurt at first yet build a stronger body and increase flexibility. properly done kata require lots of muscle tension and could be thought of as resistance training. shotokan always reflected a strong and powerfull art form to me. there are numerous advantages from shotokan on the mental level as well. most often these characteristics are pointed out yet i have never felt were really appreciated. the growth in self-cofidence and sense of disipline are worth more that a sales tactic by an instructor or satisfaction of a parent thier children are learning something worthwhile. these qualities help us grow into the people we become. why does everyone these days think strictly along the lines of is this style good for self-defense? or worse how does this style compare to another in terms of fighting ability? granted having skills that enable a person to defend themselves is very important. yet the martial arts offer so much more.
I have to comment on this. If someone was looking for a martial art to keep their body in good repair, Shotokan is one of the absolute last things I'd recommend. I had constant aches in my knees and hips when I did Shotokan - not the good, my-muscles-are-burning type of ache, but the bad, I-think-I'm-getting-arthritis type of ache. This is one of the reasons why I found Wushu and CMA much preferable in terms of forms; the deep stances put stress on my muscles instead of my joints. Much nicer. And this is not even to mention practices like throwing snapping kicks in the air, which, if I'm not mistaken, is one of the fastest paths to killing your knees. The deep stances and snapping kicks are one of the main reasons I decided not to continue to pursue Shotokan at university - there were more interesting styles to study, and my I knew I was doing my body harm. Since I've stopped Shotokan, my joints feel a lot better (they're still fairly creeky, though), and I've found that I get much more effective - and SAFER - conditioning from doing sit ups, squats, and pushups in Judo and BJJ than from doing Kata in Shotokan.
hey TheMightyMcClaw, would you at least agree that shotokan offers benifits to both mind and body as opposed to just being something for self-defense? not certain how long you took shotokan classes for yet the stances caused me serious discomfort when first learning them. after some time had passed the stances were no longer difficult for me to assume nor caused serious discomfort (unless our sensei insisted we remain in a given stance for a good lenght of time). far as practice of throwing snap kicks into the air we had been told 1000 times not to fully extend the kick to prevent injury. the same held true for the punches we did. that may or may not be a practice in some classes yet is how things were done at that shotokan dojo. everyone has thier own view about what is really interesting or not. and those opinions should be respected. happened to love shotokan while a student and have often wished that i had never left that dojo. even today shotokan is among my favorite martial art styles and i would not hesitate to recommend shotokan to anyone looking for a good style.
( I recommend Dennis Jones' latest article in MAI and further reading on the Morrisnoholdsbarred website regarding ' Karatedo ' and it's origins and significance in regards to Budo and the bushi ). No offence Intended to anyone and best wishes to all Mappers.
Just on reading the previous post quote and deep stances....so say I fall over and need to get up, I need to use my legs to get up from a crouch position and therefore lift a lot of weight with them. Does this mean that man has evolved so that legs are damaged when getting up from a lying position of from falling over?
I'm pretty sure training hundreds or possibly thousands of man hours in stances so low, your backside drags along the floor is an absolute prerequisite for regaining one's footing if one has a penchant for fallling over which begs the suggestion perhaps Karateka with a similar affliction might think about taking BJJ................ : )
im just never going to bend my legs beyond 15 degrees again to prevent damage. If I fall I'll have to get sombody to lift me up, and if I drop something and nobody is around I'll just have to leave it or get some of those rubbish picking up things to grab it. As for getting out of bed, I'll have to invent some kind of Wallace and Gromit like machine to prop me up otherwise my knee might give in at any moment! I haven't even thought about going to the toilet yet! But its all in the name of health as we now all know thanks to this thread that our knees are pretty much useless
To be fair, low stance training in any art is questionable, or should be !? A friend of mine trained in Harimau Silat for several months and it DID damage his knees. His physique was too heavy set and the style is suited to a lighter frame, and what's the point anyway ? Satsui, keep your Wallace and Gromit machine handy.......the day will inevitably come when you will need it : )
.... The point is all Physics and Leverage. If you have to push a car (out of gas) I guarantee the first thing you'll do is get down nice and low (more leverage) and drive the car forward using your legs. At times those same principles apply to kumite. Like Shotokan our Okinawan system is known for low strong stances... does that mean I fight out of a low stance all the time? no.... but it's nice to know that all that power is available if I need it. I'd much rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it... My $.02
This low stance argument is a very old one, I think it can damage knees if it isn't done properly. I have knees which tend to bend inward a little so if I don't do the stances correctly then it will damage my knees as the weight is stressing the joint as opposed to being supported by the muscle of the legs.
I have a bad knee and I still study Jujitsu, TKD, and Shotokan when I get a chance. I think if your knees really bother you and get in bad shape, then its time to adjust or adapt something. Wear a knee brace, like I did, or adapt your training just to suit your needs as a martial artist, as I've seen others do. My knee improved with a little support and I dont need the brace anymore, I just do what I can and I think thats all anyone can do. I know this kind of thinking probably doesnt follow purist form with the arts and their methods, but not everyone is built the same.
While I totally agree that one should modify their training because of physical limitations, disabilities, injuries, age, etc, even if it substantially changes the ' form ' and affects the practicality to some extent, it is better to train around an injury or whatever, rather than through it, as in the old days when we knew no better. However, I have to say, training in a low stance karate style, like shotokan in a knee brace is a bit like asking Muhammad Ali to do some boxing sparring with a head guard........... Jaae
Having done both shotkan and kyokushin, my preference is for shotokan, although I have had 3 different shotokan instructors, each one having different skills and preferences making for different classe's. there are good points in both styles, every style and instructors have both good and bad points, some have more or less than others.
