mdn, first of all, have a look at any video data base, look for some tai-chi stuff and i bet you'll find a lot of push hands performed by grand masters, and they know what tai-chi's really about, don't they? so, please tell your teacher not give people rubbish about how uncool tui shou is. secondly, if i'm not mistaken, the chinese of old used to call a lot of stuff with the word CHI. mostly things they coulnd't completely comprehend. so it doesn't have to be any magnificent power at all. it may mean a way of moving use in tai-chi or simply the way of power application it's reknown for. or, it might just be way how poeple tried to understand how the grand masters centuries ago were able to effortlessly throw apponents around. also, a thing called chi can be foung in chinese medicine or arts i'm no peciallist of chinese but i've been studying japanese for some time and know that they also have a word/s/ (KI) basen on the initial, chinese chi. and it also can be found in a number of different phrases. as for the translation, "grand ultimate fist" and all, i found some sources translating it to something like: " the grat aim" or "the ultimate goal" and that also seems to be suitable in terms of understanding tai-chi for me, whatever call it, as long as you don't bet all your money on some "miraculous energy" but simply concentrate on hard training with an APPROPRIETE teacher, in the long run you should expect wonders for both your body and soul, couse, truely, REAL tai-chi is second to none. though, it's sometimes hard to find the real thing. cheers
yes Lio, I'm just being cheeky!! Is that an English expression? Anyway, I'm just trying to make a point that the study of TCC entails CHI development. Are you sure what you do is TCC???
aim/ goal I think is certainly mistaken. taiji translates to either supreme ultimate or grand ultimate it is a reference to the symbol that represents (simply put) movement from wuji (stillness). I would imagine YLC had excellent poise and movement to earn such a tag for his art. TCC was certainly around and being practiced somewhat effectively before this though.
Push hands is essential to taiji IMO. It is on a basic level learning to interact physically with another person: while considering not only all that you are doing but also the center of gravity, dircetion+amount of force being applied in the vertical and horizontal planes, hand and foot placement, hand motion, rotational movement or torso and limbs, etc et al: the sum of wich could be called CHI or YI. Much easier to say CHI than describe all the factors within and without the body. I would truly want to test this master's ability before I paid to him to teach me anything. And maybe TBJ's remarks on laying off the "fighty" stuff when need could be seen more as recuperation time to ensure that the body is ready for an encounter at any time. That sounds perfectly reasonable.
The Chi in Tai Chi Chuan and Qi as in Breath (or however you describe it) aren't interchangable. Like their, there, and they're. Same sound, different meaning.
The "qi" in Taijiquan is actually ji... 太极拳 and means extreme pole... The Qi as in breath or air is 气... so very different... I will always believe that the term Qi has been corrupted and doesnt mean force or mystical energy... the more I read and hear the more this belief is reinforced... sink your breath makes much more sense than sink your energy... and is actually how it feels...
Shadow - agree with the translation points BUT qi may translate literally as 'breath' but do the Chinese use it when describing everyday breathing? Let me know. My guess is they don't. (I always thought it translated as 'wind' anyway ) Any road up... The 'everyday' or 'material' breath is one thing, the qi or 'subtle breath' is another. In TCM they refer to qi all the time - blocked qi, flow of qi etc surely that is not a reference to physical breathing? (I'll ask my Doctor Liang next time I see him ) HOWEVER the one type of breath can help control the other - so in one way you're right! This is also probably why different Taiji schools and teachers disagree on the importance of breathing method to Taiji's core power. On the subject of ch'i and chi (confusing ol' wade giles) can I recommend the Yale system or the pinyin as both are less confusing (pinyin will become the main one inevitably over the next twenty years or so as China keeps expanding) I always use 'Taiji' - that's how it should be pronounced too - and qi (silly spelling - still pronounced 'chee') so there is less confusion. I usually think of Taijiquan as meaning 'Yin and Yang boxing' or 'primordial pugilism' - 'supreme ultimate' and 'great pole' again stem from the old school translators and tho literally correct miss the essence imho How about: "Fighting system encompassing and utilizing the essence of all creation, destruction and existence" ....rolls off the tongue nicely don't it? roflmao Peace :Angel:
TJB it can also be translated as air or wind/gas.... (so next time I pass wind I will tell the wife its just my Qi settling... ) as yet I havent heard my Chinese friends use this term for.. well pretty much anything... I will ask them when I see them next which will be tomorrow and friday... will be interesting I think... As for the Qi being blocked... hmmm I think that this relates to the confusion or corruption of terms... for example several hundreds of years ago the exact term for biomechanics was unknown as indeed the phenomenon of biomechanics wasnt really known so they called it Qi.. our frame of reference just hasnt caught up with our knowledge is all... (diclaimer: biomechanics are just one part of the whole Qi thing... )
Hi shd, isn't one of the more 'literal' translations refering to steam rising from heated rice ? From this we can maybe see how the term got its energy interpretations. I would agree that things seem more mystical in times past. From what I understand the Chinese language is far less literal or fixed in meaning than Western language. Regards
Working for the MA mags I've asked plenty of Chinese and Japanese 'masters' what their interpretation of ki and chi is. None of them saw it as anything 'special' typical responses - from the head of the HK MA association and Hung Gar lineage holder - "it means air - if you stop breathing - you're dead! I can't see why westerners make so much fuss about it!" From top Japanese Wado Karate instructor: "Ki is energy in all it's forms - when we have thunder and lightening in the sky we say the sky has ki". Another used the steam coming from the rice pot saying you need the energy from rice to live. This is why I generally translate it as 'animation'.
I agree with TCB in that 'Yin Yang Boxing' would be the best description for Tai Chi Chuan. Gives a better understand of what it is. 'Supreme Ultimate Fist' sounds a bit up it's own ****, even though it is a reference to the supreme ultimate, rather than referring to itself as being the supreme ultimate (in western terms). The whole Qi being steam from rice comes from the character of Qi itself, which is a pot of rice cooking with steam coming from it. "Sink the qi to the dantien" can be thought of as abdominal breathing if you aren't particularly energy inclined.
I do think it's a bit cocky saying the Chinese didn't understand this or that back then... that our marvelous western scientists now know.... ....when those same guys were doing brain and heart surgery while us lot were running around in furs. I often hear western scientists say, "we now know...blah blah" and then describe stuff that has been known in TCM for thousands of years lol I also tend to think that 'qi' is something western science hasn't yet discovered and / or rationalised / quantified rather than the other way round tbh.... lol ...but then I do live in a dreamworld....lol
I wouldn't be so sure about this "corruption" idea of yours. The non-communist Chinese character for "qi" contains a "rice" radical underneath and is believed to represent the steam coming out of a pot of cooking rice. Therefore, qi is often translated as "nourishing mist," "breath of life," etc. There is no one English word that is precisely equivalent and does not just mean "air" or "breath." "Kong-qi" or "empty qi" means air and "huxi" (exhaling and inhaling) or "tuna" mean "breathing." Qi is definitely not the same as just air or breath in the minds of the average Chinese speaker, martial artist or otherwise. The idea that it used to be a simple term meaning "breath" and that it has become befuddled recently is definitely incorrect. As far back as Zhuang-zi Chinese philosophers were referring to "qi" and its relation to the breathing as something much more than breath, akin to the force behind all change in the universe or "fluid matter." It's about as simple a concept as "dao." Acupuncture is based on the theory of the qi meridians and has been around for quite a while. The points on the "Bronze Man" dated back about 1000 years ago are basically the same points acupuncturists use today. Are you saying they used to be sticking needles in their patients legs to adjust their breath? Qi flows all around the body and comes in many varieties, not just the kind to be found in the air. We also derive it from food, for example. Qi is related to the breathing and the breathing is one of the best tools at our disposal to learn to control the qi, but qi and breath are not the same thing.
Hi 'tccstudent' and All, Does it? Only if you can define what CHI is - and YES you can do that at a personal level MAYBE even at a club level but certainly not in such a way as to get everyone to agree to it - SO... Does TCC entail CHI development? Probably yes but I'm not sure All the best. Robert.
You mean traditional characters as compared with simplified... unless youre implying the communist governement is invovled in some sort of cover up re Qi... and yes while there may be a character pertaining to the steam from a bowl of rice its more possible that instead of it meaning "nourishing mist" or "breath of life" from the outset it came to mean that to particular groups of people... or was perhaps labeled so in times of famine etc... just as plausible as believing in some esoteric or mystical force... I will get back to you on this once I have chatted with my Chinese friends and study partners tomorrow... Thank you for offering proof of my point... yes far back they perhaps used the term qi to explain the (at that time) unknown and then linked it with other related things... after all with no breath there is no universe (well at least for the person who isnt breathing...) So if I said that it was really humours that made a person sick it would be ok...?? and once again I am saying that it is very easy to use a term to be the panacea or catch all for all things... As evidenced by the above... the use of the term Qi has often been a blanket to cover many things... all of which are more readily explainable and not just by modern medicine or science but even by Chinese Taiji teachers...
Of course the Chinese discovered everything and were doing it all 4000 before us poor "Europeans" even discovered breathing... (sorry being a bit facetious there)... I think that knowing something and knowing how something works are different... and many races/peoples were doing many things that others did not know about before any one of them were out of furs... and keep dreaming TJB... :Angel:
Well, imo, putting the self defense aspects aside for a minute, the whole idea of practicing TCC is to nourish and culitvate the circulation of CHI within the body. There have been many famous masters past and present who agree with this idea.
I agree that Chinese use qi to mean many different things, some of which could otherwise be explained by Western science. In addition to the body's qi, the Chinese refer to weather as "heaven's qi," luck as "the circulation of qi," negative influence as "evil qi," etc. I'm just saying that qi has been a very complex and multifaceted term meaning many things to many people throughout Chinese history, just like dao. Also, why is anyone asking JMA teachers about qi (ki) when they clearly do not have the same concept of it as Chinese martial artists? Do JMAists talk about flowing the ki to all parts of the body? No. Their ki is more like "spirit," or "timing" in the sense of "kiai" or "Aikido." Does the Aikido-ka seek to meld with the internal energy flow and breath of the opponent? No, he seeks to follow his movement and use his momentum against him. For most people who practice TCM or CMA, it's really quite simple: qi is qi. Nothing more, nothing less. However, to assume that everyone has an idea of the type of qi martial artists are talking about is also incorrect. At the beginning levels of qigong you can only feel the movements of the breath and the blood. You sometimes also get a tingling feeling as if your arm is asleep. But these things are not the qi itself. Qi feels more like an unusual kind of electrical pulse that has a distinctly "spirally" quality to it, as opposed to the blood, which moves more along straight lines. It takes a couple of years of serious qigong practice to reach the point where you can recognize qi as seperate from blood. The biggest thing that bugs me about the whole qi debate is people saying things like "actually, qi is just body mechanics," etc. This seems to me an explanation people come up with to explain why they've been doing Chinese martial arts for years and still don't understand what is meant by qi. This is because qi and martial art must be trained seperately. It doesn't matter if you do the Yang long form from here until eternity, if you don't practice qigong, you're not going to understand what is meant by the body's qi. Body mechanics are body mechanics, breathing is breathing and qi is qi. They are three seperate entities, all of which can be trained seperately, though breathing and qi do effect one another. An interesting point is that although the qi doesn't always flow parallel to the blood vessels, it always synches up with tendons. That is not to say that there is a tendon everywhere qi can go, but rather that qi flows along anywhere there is a tendon. Martial artists and qigong practitioners, therefore, have a specific idea of qi, that may or may not be related to the "great energy of the universe" Daoists speak of. In martial arts we are concerned with the body's qi, whatever underlying biological processes that may include. But to think of it as simply "breath," is not doing the concept justice.
