Is it too late to leave KSW?

Dumog is a concept, not a technique. It's the locking and throwing aspect of Filipino martial arts.

 

Not dumog, hosinsul ........... this is the Kuk Sool forum, I vote we keep it about KMA. LOL
:Angel:

 

Haven't you just been warned repeatedly about this behaviour?

 

Getting back to the matter of whether its too late, I think people have pretty much indicated that it is not. Under the surface it will require the individual to admit that he chose incorrectly for his needs and then he will need to locate something the more closely meets his needs. From talking to LEO-s I know highly sophisticated arts are not necessary for law-enforcement. Basic Boxing and wrestling skills are more than sufficient. The Tokyo Police Force use Tomiki Aikido and Judo as well as Kendo to keep their skills up, but these are related directly to the culture. The PRC Police use CHIN NA quite a bit as well as LONG FIST Boxing and Chinese Wrestling. Once again these are related to the culture. LEO-s need to have upper-body strength and intelligent familiarity with grabbing and striking and escapes. The rest of what KS has to offer is directed at the hobbyist and MA thespian. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

As a Brit, I do hope you're not tarring me with that brush my friend!???

 

When it comes to 'apply-able techniques' for law enforcement and prison officer work (in real life situations), it is far far better to rely on gross motor skills than try to use dinky little wrist locks, etc!

 

I agree. For most levels of force, the gross motor skills are the most important.

However, it also depends on the level of force - in law enforcement and prison guarding, a joint lock can be used as an escorting technique or a way to control a person who might not be ready to escalate to the next level if you keep a tight grip on him. Some of the locks also come into play after the strike and/or takedown and work into position for handcuffing. Sometimes a properly applied lock can also be used to return a person to their feet and help them comply with what you wish them to do.

Sometimes the situation just doesn't warrant strikes (or pepper spray or shooting or etc) and a controlling technique is just the right thing. These are some of the scenarios that we find LEOs, prison guards, and military people are interested in.

 

@ mr. sims: when i read 'angry white pajamas', the tokyo police force used yoshinkan aikido... wayyyyy more intense. did the style change???

 

Whoa...Thomas. I want to make sure we don't mix apples and oranges.

If we are talking about LEO-s in the sense of patroling, traffic monitoring, crowd control and community management, I can agree that there MIGHT be a place for joint-locks etc. But if things get heavy, Law Enforcement has become very specialized in its task management which is how we come to have every large-city police force with its own dedicated combatives section (IE. "SWAT").

The same holds true for prison populations. In the daily function of incarcerated individuals there are set protocols or moving and escorting inmates from point a to point b. No joint-locks or pins. If things turn nasty, the average CO backs out of the way and special teams perform cell-extractions or handle disruptions and altercations.

Do you remember that old adage about "locks are intended to keep honest people honest"? The same holds true for most modern applications of sophisticated MA material that is not intended as training or conditioning material. The preponderance of joint-locks and pins originated as fractures, joint-breaks and dislocations, which were considered more "merciful" than killing a person. However, in our modern society lethal and debilitating force are largely eschewed. The result is the heavy MA emphasis on material that is "defensive" (IE. "dissuades" the honest person from acting out too badly) Probably the best example is the transition of Korean and Japanese practices to "-do"-s from their more nasty technical (K. "sool"; J. "jitsu") precusors. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

As previously stated, I am not an LEO, so I will refrain from commenting on that aspect.

I would like to say, that I agree with Bruse the most KS/Hapkido "pins" are not body imobilizations, but breaks, and thus work poorly as body immobilzations. I also study BJJ a little, and that art does focus on body immobilzations which do not focus on a break as a finish, but rather a true "pin".

 

I just want to point out (rather obviously IMO) that wrestling = American

and Boxing = Western sport

I just wanted to point out that they are part of WESTERN culture. So how come when someone in Asia is doing THERE arts, it's cultural, and it doesn't apply to Westeners?

 

Not a expert and I'm just taking a shot at this but maybe perhaps because of cultural exchange? I mean, you have "American" Kenpo and "American" Karate, even though its Japanese and Chinese. Plus, some techniques cross over in other martial arts because their simple, or common, or both.

 

That's a rather ambitious statement my friend! No matter where you look in the world you will find evidence of extant or extinct styles of wrestling. In some cases, different styles of wrestling could (and may still) be found in the same country. Take Britain, for example, wrestling dates back to at least 1829 BC when it was mentioned as being included in the Tailtin Games in that year! And there used to be many different regional styles all over Britain, including: Cumberland and Westmoreland; Lancashire; Cornwall and Devonshire, and many more.

Now look into the history of the old Soviet Union countries and you will also find many different styles of wrestling. India is another example of a place in the world where wrestling is still practised and highly-regarded. And if you care to research the history of wrestling in ancient Greece and Rome, and take a look at the all-in fight known as the Pankration, contestants fought by combining wrestling and boxing together. A bit like MMA today you might say – except in ancient Rome, they also used the Caestus on their hands!

 

Human Beings are, on the whole, fairly intelligent – no matter what part of the world they might hail from. And with that being so, it's in no way surprising to find an uncountable number of ways of fighting that look the same, or very similar, in completely different cultures. Take joint locks and holds, for example. Once people figured out the way joints were meant to bend in everyday use, they soon figured out ways in which to lock and cause pain to those joints by bending, twisting, compressing, hyper-extending, etc., in order to cause pain and/or damage.

It's obvious there are similarities and overlaps – regardless of whether there was any cultural exchange or not!

 

I was referring to modern day wrestling and boxing really. Wrestling is taught as part of the curriculum in American Schools, same as Judo in Japan (I've met Japanese students before ;p). Boxing too, is considered a western sport.

But you are right, origins of these sports date well back and into time before time.

 

The locks and escorting techniques we teach for LEOs and Corrections are fairly simple ones, essentially ones that can be used with a "bit" of pressure to ensure the person complies and that can be ramped up quickly in case they decide not to to. We only teach a handful of these and they tend to be the ones that are easy to apply and easy to transition to a take down and then for handcuffing. If it doesn't work, you need to be able to transition into something else, possibly a striking or weapon scenario.

For example, if you are walking side-by-side with a person, you can escort them by holding their wrist with one hand and using the other palm to press lightly upwards on their elbow (keeping the person on your non-sidearm side)... for the fairly compliant person this is enough to use to guide them to where they need to be. If the decide to turn away or start to resist, pulling back on the wrist and applying pressure on the elbow can be used to direct them away from the scene and also, if needed, be redirected into a takedown (modified bent elbow takedown) and that same handle can be used to turn them over on their stomach. Then the same grip is turned a bit to put them into a good handcuffing position. In this way, you go from a very low level of force to a slightly elevated one and into a "safe" position for handcuffing.

Again, we aren't using the whole hapkido spectrum... just some strikes and basic locks/takedowns that all can be "ramped" up for a higher level of force (or relaxed a bit) and that can transition into handcuffing. We get a lot of feedback from our corrections students - they consider them very useful and have had no issues with the level of force (there have been complaints - but the guards were found to have followed the allowable levels of force).

 

I could be cheeky and ask where your cut-off date is, from when olden-day wrestling and boxing became modern-day sports?

It's a bit like my dear old Dad's hammer. He had it for Donkey's years. He replaced the shaft several times, and the head twice!

 

And probably always was Mitch!

 

Ok, Pugil, this is a serious comment and there is no sarcasm in it at all.

IMHO you actually just raised a very profound question talking about your father's hammer. If he replaced both the head and the handle, is the item you are talking about STILL his hammer? Do you understand what I am asking?

I point this out because of the huge number of posts on various threads about the amount of variance in KS, among modern practices, and then, by extension, the variance between KS and its older pre-cursors.

In like manner, to your father's hammer, if I rebuild an old Ford Model A auto and change out the frame, change out the wheels, drop in a different engine and mount it with a new body, is the auto still antique car? Know what I am driving at? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce