Is it right to deceive people? or charge people for false information?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kobudo, Jul 11, 2011.

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  1. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    We've seen a number of times on this forum, and others, points being raised regarding false information being given within various organisations in order to hide the true teachings from those who aren't actually training within the relevant organisation.

    Before this looks like an attack on the Kans, please let me make it very clear that it is not, I am a Genbukan member, and fully support keeping certain teachings hidden from those who haven't put in the time and effort to deserve them, but want to question this practice as I don't agree with it.

    What I have an issue with, is the way false information is published, or released, AND CHARGED FOR, on the basis that it is the true teachings.

    I have seen examples of this from Hatsumi and Tanemura sensei both, I believe we will also find the same within Jinenkan, and other organisations also. When these things are discussed it's almost taken as a given fact that there will be some incorrect information or demostrations, and accepted.

    My question to everyone on here is - Is this right? Is it an acceptable thing to do?

    I'm not talking about keeping certain things hidden, if you want to keep things secret that's fine, but about taking money from someone on the basis that you are sharing correct info with them. This to me is false advertising, and also taking money on false pretences.

    If I order a new black gi, and receive a red one, I'm going to be annoyed!

    If the company I ordered it from says 'Well sir, I'm afraid we reserve our black gi's for our repeat customers.' I'm going to say 'I paid for a black gi, if you're not going to supply one you a; shouldn't advertise it as black, and b; shouldn't take money for it on the basis that it is black.

    I would demand the correct item, or a refund.

    Does anyone else feel this way, or disagree, I'd like to hear other thoughts on the subject.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2011
  2. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    Hi Kobudo.

    There seems to be a huge amount of false information going around in all styles, organisations etc and this has been the case for many, many years. The Japanese are not immune to it either, as can clearly be seen by the decision made by Tanemura Sensie and Manaka Sensie to break away from the BJK. I know that you will appreciate why I am not going to discuss this on open forum but I do think that you and I and quite a few other people also know the answer to that 0ne.

    Telling lies is unfortunately part of human nature and equally important is that if anyone chooses to openly lie about themselves, others or the information they are selling they will always trip themselves up eventually. Its not if but when they get found out and they always do trust me! Is it right? absolutelly not! Can we do anything to prevent it? Mostly no as it will always be there.
    In your case you have found a true Japanese Master who is willing to teach you and other members of your organisation the skills you are looking for and the syles that you have wanted to learn. Your teacher is providing you with the CORRECT information and teaches from the heart with sincerity and clarity. there is an old saying "you will always pay to learn"! You pay a fee (which is understandable and quite right) and have the oportunity to receive Sanmyaku; direct transmission. Don't worry about what other people are doing, just consentrate on what you are doing.

    With regard to keeping certain things hidden, YES they should be!! You have sought out, found a good teacher and paid to study in a specific school. Why would you openly invite people to share your knowledge whitout paying?? It makes a mokery of what you have chosen to learn. Its the same as producing DVD and giving it away for nothing.

    kind regards

  3. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member

    is that a new movie? episode 1 of a trilogy? ;)

    those are a bit strong words there, sir. you got concrete examples?

    HYPOTHETICAL: if what you say is true, then my opinion is that the deliberate misleading is their way of hiding their higher teachings. in some koryu orgs, few people can represent/talk for the ryuha without being given permission. the x-kans are free-for-all. but taking money? that depends on BOTH parties' view of their martial org.
  4. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Yes please show examples. I've not seen anyone (from x-kans) knowingly provide false info. But I may have missed it.

    Now some might provide info they think is right but have just not understood it properly, but that's not really lying.
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    If you are giving false info for free it is bad enough - if you are selling it you are a criminal
  6. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    Very true.
  7. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    I believe Kobudo is refering to things such as Tanemura Sensei stating that there are deliberate mistakes in a number of "to the public" Genbukan publications (books, DVDs etc), in order to tell who has learnt from such material, rather than seek out a legitimate teacher, who can provide insight into where the examples are correct, or deliberately misleading.
  8. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Does he actually say "deliberate mistakes" or are there just differences? Kuden missing etc? And that got translated as mistakes?

    I have not seen any genbukan publications except the Ninpo Secrets book...
  9. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    Yes I would agree Chris.

    A typical example (for those individuals who are interested) would be such kata as Omote and Kote-Gyaku Roppo. What can be seen on video is not the correct way to perform these kata.

    Kind regards

  10. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

  11. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Thanks for that, I was just searching for a source for Gapjumper, and most of them are Genbukan sources (paraphrasing Tanemura, or saying what they believed was the case). From what I've come across, the mistakes are sometimes as simple as a strike added, or one missing, or a photo put in backwards. It's rarely something big, but enough to show where the information came from.
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    So intrinsically dishonest rather than criminal...nice
  13. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    Intrinsically dishonest> Now that a new definition I am going to have to start using.

    I like it!


  14. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    "Where other men blindly follow the truth, remember - nothing is true..." etc etc etc.
  15. garth

    garth Valued Member

    I think if someones willing to search long enough, but there are comments on here where people have stated thaton some of the Bujinkan DVDs that the techniques demonstrated by Hatsumi are incorrect so as not to give the correct material to those who fail to train at hombu.

    The same may have (and i'm going from memory here) been said about the books

  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Learning a traditional martial art isn't the same as buying a gi in the store(or online). If you are happy with your training and your relationship with your teacher, why would you worry about what other people are doing or learning? If you aren't happy, why do you stick around?

    The rule is caveat emptor. Entering relationships, buying a house, choosing a career, deciding where to worship(if you are religious), all these are fraught with potential pitfalls as well as the obvious rewards. It is up to you to be responsible for yourself. You choose what to believe and what to study, also ultimately who to follow. Remember, ignorance is bliss! People choose arts and teachers for different reasons, many with their eyes wide shut.

    Maybe you should ask your teacher why he is dishonest(if it bugs you that much and you are convinced he is)? Then you can tell us all here on MAP how he responded.

    ps-by the way, people get deceived and charged under false premises everyday. It's called taxes. Japan has been reeling from governmental incompetence since March and things aren't getting any better. I think it was Bruce Lee that said that all knowledge was self-knowledge. Especially in the martial arts, people should take it upon themselves to seek out the truth for and by themselves...
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2011
  17. EWBell

    EWBell Valued Member

    It is just a tool to protect the art from thieves, in my opinion.
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Protect from thieves by lying and being dishonest? Something of a metaphysical dichotomy methinks
  19. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    If he is not keeping that a secret, it is fairly common knowledge and people know that he says that you can't learn from video, then where is the deceit?
  20. Canit

    Canit Valued Member

    These products are part promotion and part secondary resource for active students. In the case of the latter, students of an instructor producing books, dvd, etc., they will likely appreciate these products for what they are and default to direct transmission in the case of discrepancy. Anyone using them as primary sources for information deserves whatever they end up with.
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