Is boxing/muay thai less injury intensive than mma/bjj

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Maryreade1234, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    MMA fighters don't train exclusively BJJ. If I wanted to be pedantic, I'd argue MMA grappling is a beast of its own by this point, even if they do gi classes sometimes. It's also not a good metric to use MMA fighters, even from the old days, as the standard for your average BJJ class/school. Its a different mentality, different breed of person, different training purpose, different training environment, and that's without even getting onto the skill level differences.
     
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  2. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I've got bad news. The Gracie family proved this statement wrong 16 years ago. BJJ is loaded with takedowns, pummeling, and grips, right? How else did Royce Gracie take down Dan Severn AND Kevin Shamrock? Key words: take down. Your experience and mine don't matter as much, if we're going to measure and compare people. "wrestlers" and "judoka", being classes of people rather than individual people, can't possibly sum up or be compared to the individual skill of any BJJ player. OR wrestler or judoka for that matter.
     
  3. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Of course, but MMA grappling is and always has been largely oriented with BJJ. The wrestlers and judoka as a whole never dominated UFC grappling like BJJ did. My point was that MMA BJJ isn't just groundwork. That includes on your feet grappling. MMA BJJ includes standup and takedown practice. It has to, in 2019 just like it had to in 1993.
     
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    He's not talking about skill set. BJJ guys will trash anyone else in a submission only format. He's saying that physical pressure of having someone lie on top of you is much more in wrestling and judo as it's a skill essential to pinning. Because we don't have pins in BJJ we don't really exert as much pressure on our opponents as we want them to move so we can then advance our own position.

    Also, we don't have much wrestling or takedowns. The takedowns we practice are not done so under any resistance so it's fairly light movement and useless for fighting.

    Royce definitely had a little bit more judo and wrestling and I'd say a lot of that is because he and his brothers trained from standing a lot more and they were also fighters so they needed it. Today's average bjj player has no interest in learning anything beyond a basic body lock that's taught to white belts.

    Places that do have wrestling tend to also have MMA classes. The wrestling classes will always be less full because average BJJ guy doesn't want to risk getting injured or the hard class doesn't interest them as much.
     
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  5. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    "BJJ guys will trash anyone else in a submission only format." see, that's not true either. I get what he is saying, but what you are saying is "Royce definitely had a little bit more judo and wrestling", and that "Today's average bjj player has no interest in learning anything beyond a basic body lock that's taught to white belts. ". I'm not going to touch that last one because I have no idea what they all think, but I really don't get the Royce Gracie learned wrestling or judo and won UFCs. He learned from his dad, no? Helio Gracie was not a judoka or wrestler. Jiujitsu, right?
     
  6. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    There have been various submission-only tournaments the world over and predominantly BJJ guys win. Craig Jones vs Sambo for instance.

    As to them being taught takedowns from Helio, well you could make a fair argument that Helio was a Judo bb more than anything. There are a few BJJ specialised takedowns but they're rare. They also almost never come up in the curriculum except for when clubs run a once-a-week "self defence" class or the like. BJJ players spend like 98% of their time getting good at ground work. There are others who go out of their way (like me) to learn takedowns but it's often as part or a wrestling or judo class and not in BJJ classes.
     
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  7. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    This is what bothers me. Where did you get 98%? From your own POV? You're generalizing. "BJJ players...", and the reason I know it is because I watched the first 50 UFCs. BJJ players run into trouble against good strikers, I'll admit, but they don't have any trouble on their feet. The evidence is incontrovertible. There are so many good BJJ people on their feet. Royce Gracie, for starters.

    Helio Gracie allowed a limb to be destroyed rather than submit. That's not in Judo or Wrestling, is it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Well the first 50 UFC events were all before BJJ was even popular. There are not many top BJJ guys at the top of MMA anymore. Wrestling and striking are the current trend.

    In regards to "where I got that number from" I suppose it's unfair to give it a number at all because it's completely arbitrary. I'm just trying to emphasise that anyone doing bjj in a casual way will never really train takedowns except for a few of the basic self defence ones we teach I.e how to escape a headlock. Some places may have competition classes that focus on takedowns and some might have a separate judo or wrestling class but in a a bjj class you are not likely to encounter any real takedowns under resistance.
     
  9. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    That's cool, but you're still making the mistake of holding up top level guys as your standard, when I'm talking about your average joe. Unless the OP is a Black belt, it's not particularly relevant what Royce did 20 years ago. Its a topic for discussion how relevant it is at all given how different the martial arts landscape was back then. You seem to be arguing that because techniques are the same, or because someone like a Gracie has done well, that all practitioners in all three styles are comparable and they're just not.

    My point was simply that while bjj has takedowns, you're not going to get thrown around or crushed in your average BJJ school anywhere near as much or as badly as you will in your comparative average Judo or wrestling class. I feel very confident saying that if you ask anyone who has trained with partners across those disciplines they'd all agree that being taken down, even thrown, or being top controlled by judoka or wrestlers is a lot more painful an experience than by average bjj peeps, even if they're doing the same technique. If you're worried about injury, or aggravating an existing injury, then of the three a bjj school will put the least strain on you with grappling. Whether that equally applies to black belts fighting in high level pro mma is irrelevant unless OP is also in that, say, 3% of practitioners.
     
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  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Association fallacy - Wikipedia

    This is relevent

    famous BJJ guys are known for MMA
    MMA is known for wrestling and striking
    Therefore all BJJers are good at wrestling and striking

    My cat has four legs
    Dogs have four legs
    Therefore my cat is a dog.


    By blackbelt most BJJers will have some MMA and wrestling skill.

    But most BJJers arnt at blackbelt, and they may not of even attended the other classes.

    I've got a Judo brown belt, but it was really for being a fast learner, and using three throws into my usual BJJ game, my stand up still sucks, but I've still got more options then the average hobbyist purple belt, who doesn't also go to MMA class regularly.
     
  11. Maryreade1234

    Maryreade1234 Member

  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    You'd be better by building up your core strength, and bracing properly / not twisting as you move as much.

    Soft tissue rib injuries are a very common beginner injury, don't worry just train around it, strengthen up your core, build up intensity in wrestling slowly.
     
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  13. Maryreade1234

    Maryreade1234 Member

    In regards to different disiplines. Youv told me to slowly build up intensity in wrestling, does the same apply to striking? Or can you do lots and lots of striking if you have the energy and time to train?

    Iv seen a gym that does 90% striking but also offers 2 grappling classes a week.
     
  14. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    You can hit pads as hard as you like but you should probably spar very lightly when it's striking.
     
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  15. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Anymore. Aye. But ounce upon a time, Royce Gracie.
     
  16. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I disagree. Sorry.
     
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Interestingly the BJJ guys who do compete in the UFC have far far better takedowns and striking then Royce ever did, because cross training is a strength.
     
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Your at a good gym, with lots of classes available, you just need to place yourself, it won't take long to slowly increase the intensity, but consistent training is the key.
     
  19. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Aye, and he wasn't a fantastic wrestler. I agree though that guys today should be training takedowns a lot. What's the point in being great at bjj if you can't get them down in the first place?
     
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  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Pull half guard, get the advantage for an almost sweep, and stall the round out?

     

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